Denise 0:07
Myth, Magic, Medicine, and everything in between two doctors talking.
Hi, welcome to Myth, Magic, Medicine. I'm thrilled that Gabriel Bietz, who talked to us recently about his foray into children's book authorship, offered to come back and talk about how he sees hypnosis as helpful in his practice, as a vascular surgeon. Great to see you again. Thank you for joining us. I'm really thrilled to find a surgeon who supports the idea of hypnosis, you don't know what it means to me, as a former doctor who became a hypnotist, because I really, really want people to understand how you it's not going to replace anything, it is a modality that can help support people when they're ill, and for a lot of other things. So I was very excited when you told me about your experiences. And so just just back up a little bit, give a little tiny bit about who you are, in case anybody didn't catch your earlier episode with me. And and then we can talk about that. Thank you so much.
Gabriel 1:12
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me back on the show. And so for all the listeners out there, my name is Gabriel Bietz, I'm a vascular surgeon. For all those that are curious what a vascular surgeon does is kind of like a plumber for people. So your arteries and your veins there, if they're either blocked or leaking, I'm the type of surgeon that would go in there and help with that, or fix it. And,
you know, all of our we have, I practice in San Antonio, and we have a wonderful group, our group is PVA, just made of some fantastic men and women who, who work so hard to take care of our community. And, and it's been wonderful. And so when you mentioned hypnosis, I thought it was good to have it as a topic, because most people, they interpret it as you know, someone with a swinging watch. And it's very theatrical. And I wanted to explain how it can be used in modern day medicine. And, and just show some of the highlights. And it may be more subtle than you think. And some of you out there who have had procedures done awake, you may have had it happen and you didn't even know it.
Denise 2:32
Exactly. That's that's part of it. It's not a big funny woowoo thing. It's something that happens naturally, when you just sort of allow your conscious mind to switch off for a short time you're in that state. Most of the work I do with medical is so pre surgical preparations to help people reduce their anxiety about procedure, help them be able to help the anesthetist and the surgeon, when they're and also to help healing so that they don't fight the procedure. That's really the idea of like, you're, it's very unlikely you would have a hypnotist in the room while you're dealing with a patient. So it's really helpful if doctors have a little bit of knowledge about how to use this really helpful tool. So did you take formal instruction on it? Or do you just realize that the way you talk to your patients is a hypnotic? Is Hypnotic?
Gabriel 3:28
Well, I would say, you know, I so I've had So full disclosure, I've had no formal training with hypnosis, I don't advertise it as that, I just feel that there are a lot of times when as a surgeon, you're dealing with someone who's going through something very scary, right? And anybody can say, Oh, sir, that surgery, that's not a big deal. But when it's your when it's your body, and it's you, it's you, who are undergoing the procedure, people can be very, very different in terms of their mindset. And some people who you may think would not tolerate it very well sail right through, and then other people who may look rough and tough, and they're as nervous as kittens, you know. And so I think there are there is a lot of value in it. And I'll just start from the top if you don't mind. So I'll share my experience with it is we have a lot of patients who are quite sick, you know, they either have cardiac problems, they have heart problems, or their vascular problems are so severe that they can't tolerate a general anaesthetic because it's too dangerous. It's too dangerous to put them fully to sleep. And so you know, the way we can try and work around it as we use some local anesthetic so to help relieve with the actual direct pain, but then also in an operating room having anesthesia, talk to the patient. And then it helps put them in a different mindset or sometimes all talk to them. And so they're comfortable, right? From a very, very light, either sedative or light pain medications and local anesthetic, but to really help them so that they have a better experience. It's getting them through that, well, we, there's a couple of ways we do it. One is, sometimes I'll have patients that are very nervous, and they just want to know what's going on. And I just go through it step by step. And then I explained to them what they're going to feel, okay, so it's like, Okay, I'm gonna move your arm here, you're gonna feel some pressure here, you know, you're gonna feel this working away and chatting quietly. And then I'm going to check in with you, if something happens, you just let me know. And then we can pause. And then they're like, Okay, and then if I get to a point where I say, okay, that we're at a point of no return, we can't pause right here, I need you to stay still, then. So. So some part of hypnosis is engaging with the patient. so they're actually participating in aware of what there's going on.
Denise 6:05
And one of the one of the biggest myths is that you're asleep, and you're unaware of what's happening, right? It's very, a lot of the time is very interactive.
Gabriel 6:14
Exactly. And so a lot of it is just engagement. Some patients are nervous, and they just want their they want to their thought process, and their mindset needs to be taken to a different place. And so usually, we go in any direction the patient wants to go, and I'll give you an example. So we had a patient, and she was really focused on her grandkids, which is, which is very normal. And so we would just ask about our grandkids. So again, very comfortable, light sedative, really watching vitals close. And we would just ask him like, well, how many grandkids? Yeah, oh, well, I have eight, oh, okay, well, that's nice. Well, how old is the oldest one. And then, you know, for me, it's, it's not much effort, because you're, you're concentrated on taking care of their surgical needs. And anesthesia is concentrated on maintaining their, you know, their physiological status and watching their vitals and in working with us, and making sure they're comfortable. And sometimes, so that's a good example of we just took someone to a different place, and we actually did a ruptured aneurysm in a patient. And it was, those are very dangerous,
Denise 7:19
And very high anxiety for everybody,
Gabriel 7:22
Very high anxiety, especially for the poor person going through it. So we had a good outcome. You know, I mean, those those types of situations, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't end well all the time. But we did, we've done a few where they were awake. And that's a quick, very thorough judgment call, where you're deciding if someone's going to have the mental capacity to be able to handle that. And, and we've done a nice job of that over the years, and we just distracted them. And, you know, we were able to achieve a good result minimally invasive. You know, in today's world, we just have so many other options, you know, with stent grafts, and minimally invasive techniques, and you're just not moving, you don't have to move as much tissue around to achieve the same goal. So it's a lot easier on people. So
Denise 8:15
I thank you for your support of the theory of hypnosis. I swear most of my practice is anxiety, chronic pain comes into it, because you won't be able to but but anxiety is the biggest one is just people. I have, actually, this morning, I got a feed from some feedback from a client, I send the tape because he's about to undergo significant oral surgery. And he's big burly guy, terrified, hates them with a passion loves the dentist doesn't want to be a patient of his
Gabriel 8:54
Yeah,
Denise 8:54
yeah. And, you know, who knows what, what memory it's triggering from, you know, we're all a jumble of things that we collect in our in our lives. It could be all sorts of things that that make him feel that way.
Gabriel 9:08
Yeah, I have. I have two examples. I have, you know, for my patients where they've decided that they want to quit smoking, believe it or not, for the one that's like, I've tried this, I've tried that. I'm like, have you tried hypnosis? And they're like, No. And I said, What can it hurt? Why don't you go, take a family member and just try it? And it does. I mean, you know, is it is it flipping a switch? No, but it is effective. I've had I've had some that I've had some patients that truly, truly truly, truly believed in it. And then I think another one for me personally, I'm not a big fan of flying on an airplane. And, and part of that was learned behavior, you know, because I've been on some rough flights going back and forth overseas. And then just not a fan of it, and then, but for me, if I can distract myself, I guess that would be a different way of doing it. So what I do is on a plane is I'm an avid reader. So I always take like, my favorite book, and I watch a movie. And if it gets a little bumpy, and I'm not too, too bad, but if it gets bumpy, you know, when everybody's sitting down, then then I'm like, Okay, if I can, if I can just read my book, I'm good. You know. And,
Denise 10:31
Actually, that's when you're explaining what it feels like people telling them, it's what happens when you get really engrossed in a book, when you're really engrossed in a movie, everything else just falls away. Right? Aware that the cushion seats are really, the chair is not that comfortable, you're in another place. And that's what it does. But, and then if something does happen, if there is a sudden, you know, the plane suddenly does a drop, you'll snap out of it, the fire alarm goes off, you'll snap out of it, but you can't get yourself back to that place. And that's really what a hypnotist teaches, the client says, This is what it feels like. Now, let me tell you, how you can do that the next time you're going to the dentist, when you go in for your surgery, use these techniques.
Gabriel 11:19
It's true and, and just to tap on surgery again, you know, for me, as a surgeon, I think that there's a couple of one, you have to have the knowledge base and good judgment to good judgment is the number one key aspect to being a surgeon, you have to have good judgment. But then I also think you also have to remember that people are going through a lot. And it's not just based on the surgery, it can be something outside of it social stuff, job stuff. And I think, as a surgeon, if you can encompass all that, and really help frame it for them, then you're doing more than just their operation you're just getting, you're helping them get through a challenging part in their life. Yeah. And that's really, that's really where you can make a difference and have and enjoy it, you know, and I joke about it with my patients. But I'm like, listen, it's important. And I tell all my patients, it's so it's important, we get along. And I said it's important that you have an enjoyable experience. I'm not saying it's gonna be fun every time and you're gonna be nervous. But I want to be part of the solution, not the problem. And when I see you at the grocery store, I want you to say hi to me, not run away. And so I'm pretty open. And I think so I think hypnosis does play a role. I think it's helpful either um...
Denise 12:42
Well it's helpful for a lot of those lifestyle changes, like you said, smoking. weight loss...
Gabriel 12:46
it's really helpful for that. It really is. And but I think and the different ways you can use it, where either they're engaged and involved. And so there's a form where they feel that they're in control. And that helps to, you know, stem their anxiety or taking them to another place so that, you know, they're, they're there, but their mindset is focused on something else to help them reduce anxiety. But either way, you're trying to get to that same endpoint.
Denise 13:13
Yeah. For those people who like watching YouTube things, if you look up, oh, I can't remember his first name. Last name is Gow. G O W is a dentist in Glasgow. He does a lot of BBC videos, and there's a lot of stuff on YouTube of him. And they get your dental implants. And they'll do root canals completely under hypnosis, and they're talking to the patient as they're doing this.
Gabriel 13:38
No ways.
Denise 13:39
Yeah, most people think oh, Dentist no go away. Yeah, but mostly, they don't do every case like that. They'd be there it obviously takes longer if you have to do if you're if you're doing the talking. But for those patients who really don't do well with anesthesia, or lidocaine as a problem. It it's very very useful. It's a lot of fun watching him there's a French man too who has an amazing patter I wish I could hypnotize people as fast as he does. There's a lot to it in that you you meet with the client first you talk about you have to understand their personality somewhat you have to know what kind of things are going to trigger them. But, but watching them are really pretty amazing. That's
Gabriel 14:26
how did you get involved? I mean, you are Peds/ER,
Denise 14:30
I was Peds/ER. I got invalid out of medicine. I was very ill quite a while ago. And as I got better and it took a long time. I knew I wasn't going to be able to go back into medicine but but I wanted to do something useful. I always thought of myself as a doctor, you know, growing up I felt was that was where I was going always very one very single minded. So after the identity crisis, that having to leave medicine abruptly caused me I looked around for things to do and so I thought, you know, I'll do a little bit of helping people with weight helping people with general lifestyle stuff, because it does so much impact your health. And then I got an introductory, I got a free introductory class on hypnosis, and just went whoop THIS is what I'm supposed to be doing. And when I realized that both the associations for for medicine, both in the US and the UK had said in the 50s, that we should be teaching medical students, I became positively furious. Because nobody even mentioned it to me, I was in training. And I was born after they well about the time they were saying this. So it's still there are some schools have a smattering of hypnosis but but I haven't come across yet anybody who has that was taught it during, during their formal education, some people have come along and joined afterwards, but it just it's, it's, we're leaving a useful modality. And instead of because it's got that, you know, gentleman with a goatee, swinging pocket watch and a cloak image in people's minds, or the dreaded mind-control, or people just saying, Oh, it's rubbish. But it's, you know, doesn't hurt you, aren't any side effects, there are a couple of conditions that you need to be a bit more careful with. Like, you know, if it's an epileptic or somebody with thought disorder, you need to be aware of that right to work with them. But it really, it's, it's nuts to me that we don't use it more.
Gabriel 16:34
I would agree. I mean, I even had, I had one patient, and they were so nervous, they had something called phlegmasia cerulea dolens which is where you get a very bad DVT are a blood clot in your leg, but not only in your leg, but in the iliofemoral. So it's in your iliac vein, in your abdomen. So you can imagine this blood clot as like, is a is a very large person by height in frame. And so you're talking about a clot, it's like the size of a carrot or a banana. You know, it's not small. It's his limb, his leg was threatened, and very, very nervous. Well educated individual. And then we got through it, because you would never guess it. But they listened to like hardcore heavy metal music. So I would do the case under local only because he didn't do well with a anesthetic. And they would listen to music that I had never heard of. I mean, like very underground, heavy metal, you know. And I just, all we did was let him use his phone. And he was good. I mean, it totally. And I was, I was like, Are you sure? And he's like 'just let me try it' you know, I'm like, okay, here's your phone, we plugged it in to a charging wall. And he'd sit there and just listen to that. And he found it very relaxing, new experience for me, which is fine. And he got a good result. You know, he was very calm.
Denise 18:17
had he had he had formal hypnosis or did he just fought you know, just knew that that would relax,
Gabriel 18:22
know that he just knew that that would relax him. I mean, he was they were a healthcare provider themselves. So now I do have a question for you. So when you got your training, so where did you train it like when you decided you're going to pursue?
Denise 18:38
I went to the Hypnosis Motivation Institute, which is in California, I do most of it was I was trained online, I had to go through 200 hours of supervised actual practice with with clients, whose 300 hours on online learning classes, which included things like business and ethics and stuff, I sort of knew some of that. Of course, of course, it's very much a wild west out here. There's this the state of Washington, and Connecticut, require registration, I'm not going to call it license because there is no actual training required. You have to register, this is your business, you have to pay them. I know that the state of Washington requires $175 and for you to take an online class in HIV, I don't see the connection, but that's what you need in order to call yourself a hypnotherapist there, but those are the only states that have any restriction. There are some things you can't call yourself this there's some places you can't practice stage hypnosis. My insurance specifically says I can't practice anesthesia. So I can't tell somebody their arm is senseless but um, but pretty much anybody you can take a weekend course and call yourself a hypnotist, and go out there and hypnotize people. For them, it's very easy because it's a natural phenomenon. There are some people who just very easily find it very easy to relax people, and to take them through an induction. But uh, but it bothers me a little bit because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing people can't know what they don't know. And so I'm not in the camp that says it must be a doctor where some of the academic hypnotists live. David Spiegel at Stanford will say it must be a healthcare professional, it must be a psychiatrist. I don't agree with that. I certainly think if you're treating somebody with Schizophrenia is a good idea. But hypnosis itself, I consider myself a technician at this point. So all of my clients, I have conversations with their doctors, or at least communication with their doctors. I'm pretty sure a lot of them just sign the form and say, Yeah, sure.
Gabriel 21:05
So how long have you been practicing?
Denise 21:08
Just over three years?
Gabriel 21:09
Three, that's fantastic. And then what would be like a common thing that someone would seek you out for, for hypnosis?
Denise 21:18
I swear, anxiety. The most questions I get are smoking. But those are people who were, you know, kind of doing the rounds of calling people about smoking. That's the most thorough, most common thing. But the patients who patients, I must not call them patients. They are my clients. The clients who come to me usually it's it's anxiety of one form or another. I've had a few people who've gone through for that. And then they come back to me for other things. Recently, a gentleman who has difficulty driving over bridges.
Gabriel 21:53
Really, that's interesting.
Denise 21:53
yeah. And that seems to be linked, The first time it happened was about 20 years ago, something was going on in his life. And a psychiatrist had suggested hypnosis. But having talked to the psychiatrist, he then felt better about it and didn't have problems just come back again. And so he thought, well, I'll skip psychiatrist just go to hypnosis. So but again, it's there's I'm pretty sure he's not listening to this podcast, so nobody else would know who he is. So he, his elderly father has just moved in with him. And I think that that is it's just there's there's some stress or, or other that's causing this triggering this issue. This is just starting. And the first time it was well, around the time of the adoption of his child that he was under stress. But it's but that is a common that's common enough to have its own name, which I can't pronounce. And very set a lot of protocols that have built up and passed on from hypnotist to hypnotist and just but, but basically, you you see a client, you talk to them, you figure out what the things are, they're bothering them, and as Erickson said, All the answers are inside. So you find them, you know, Erickson?
I don't I don't know. But I've heard that like he's,
he's passed so you're unlikely to go met him? Yeah, yeah. He's, he was very well known psychiatrist, and I think he was in Arizona. He's known as a conversational hypnotist. Okay, he didn't do a formal he would never have owned a pocket watch, I don't think he would just enter into a conversation with somebody and just just gradually take them to that relaxed state.
Gabriel 23:50
Now, how long in your experience with with your client? How long does it usually how long does the session usually lasts for?
Denise 23:59
We're very traditionalist, that 50 minute session? It depends on what the issue is, I book, usually 90 minutes so that we can go over if people need to. But I think longer the actual hypnosis, hypnosis itself, even if it's quite a complex thing, would only be about 10 or 15 minutes, the actual time that they're under. Unless, you know, you're operating on somebody, obviously, we would stay there as long as you need. But but for the, for the, the more standard thing of of introducing you talking to somebody, you're finding out from them what they in their words want to have as a known thing. The subconscious is your, your comfort zone. It's where where you're, you know, and in for a surgical patient, you know, it's going to hurt. So we're going to introduce the idea that no, it doesn't
Gabriel 25:00
Right, and they don't. Yeah, they don't. It's true. You know, they don't believe you all the time. And you'd have to say, listen, and I've had a couple of surgeries myself, one during COVID. And I think that, like anything else, the more that you can relate to your patients, and the more you can, I think we're in an area very interesting whether you're, whether you're performing hypnosis or in healthcare. I think that the more you can show clients, or patients or whomever you're helping, that you're human, and that you have your own challenges, then I think that it helps create a little bit of more trust. Because they know you they know you a little bit better in the in a long time ago, in the olden days. It was kind of your the all seeing Wizard of Oz. And I think in today's world, it's much more of a conversation than
Denise 25:55
it's that gradual shift because the going to be the generation before My Father, for example, literally tugged his forelock when he was talking to a doctor. I mean, it was Sir/Ma'am. He didn't know what to do when I became a doctor, he didn't know how to talk to me, which is bizarre. And the, they were taught, that was sort of part of the hypnotic effect of being a doctor right, here I am, I am going to cure you. And they would believe that so there's a placebo effect.
Gabriel 26:30
Yeah, you have arrived. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Denise 26:33
And so then we were going through this sort of difficult, "well, doctors aren't gods", we knew that. And before, before we realized that, that, that we're just like, You and me, we go to that lovely thing where people walked up to you in the supermarket surprised you're pregnant. When I was pregnant. I was I was mixing two things there. I'll probably clip that out. When I was pregnant with my third child, I was working. My first two kids were born US residency and fellowship. My third. I was, I was an ER doc in rural Pennsylvania. And I got up to walk across the nurse's station to go and do something and a frequent flyer heard of I heard from across her Dr. Billen, and you got knocked up. She was offended or quite what maybe just surprised that I ever left the ER.
Gabriel 27:30
Apparently, we just live, you know, they just, they just open a drawer and take whatever, just keep us there first when you need out and then, you know, blow us up. And there we are. But you're right, though. I mean, it's a different in a good way. You know, I mean, it's in today's world, it's much more of a, there's a I think the relationship is good. I think showing people you know who you are, and, and letting them get to know you a little bit as important. You know, so they can get a feel for it. And I enjoy just like you I enjoy practicing that way. Because for me, it makes it fun to you know, I have patients that come in they go, Hey, how are you doing after your surgery, I had surgery last year. Apparently, when you get older, you don't tolerate bicycle accidents, as well as you did, as well as I did. And so I tore my ACL and my meniscus, out on a bike ride with my kids when I was jumping off a curb, and we don't have to get into too much details of it. But I limped I limped home. And I didn't call my wife and she comes home and she goes, what do you do? And I was like, I was on my bicycle. And, you know, I was with the kids and I hopped the curb, and they were crossing the street. And my knee just went, you know, and, and I knew it was bad. And so, my my amazing, better half, got me crutches, and a brace and I went to work, because we had to because it was, you know, bring up the, you know, physicians were required during that time period. And it was all hands on deck to help people with COVID and help your community. So hell or high water I went to work and I did that for a week. And I'd go to work on crutches getting back to your story, and they'd be like, What happened to you? And be like, bicycle accident and they go, why don't you come home and I go, why, you know, this is where I'm, you know what I mean? They're like, wait a minute, what you know, you're, you're hobbling around. You're my surgeon, you know, like this is what we have. Yeah, I'm sorry. You know, my I'm made of, you know, skin and bone just like you. And then. So anyway, that would be, you know, inpatient, but my point was, I let them in right then I had surgery. After surgery, I couldn't walk for a couple of months, and I did not want to operate on people until I was 100%. And so I became the clinic doctor, right? And then all my colleagues are off having fun in the operating room. And I'm left there for clinic, which is fine. I enjoy it. So all my all of our patients for the whole practice, saw me hobbling around and going through physical therapy, but letting them in and they're like, you know, they would have surgery. You know, it's so funny because I had surgery, they had surgery, everybody in the room had surgery, right? And they're complaining about physical therapy. And I'm like, Well, you think that's bad, I got to go there, you know, and move, move this, this bloody knee until my endorphins kick in, and I either pass out or I can't feel it. And so, but then a year later, all my patients now they're like, Hey, how's your lady? How are your kids? Right? So, I know, I've been waffling on a little bit, but that's fine. It's important. I think it's I do think it's important. So my patients, it's funny, they they come in, they're checking on me. You know, it's nice. Yeah. So when you're when you're a hypnotist, and you're getting involved in it? Do you ever do it online? Or is it mostly live?
Denise 31:16
No, it's actually mostly online? Because really, yeah, when I first first started my practice, which was, you know, right before the, the pandemic, not long before the pandemic, I was going to do it all online. And a lot of people locally knew me and wanted to see me in person I didn't want to do at my house, it's not really set up that way. So I rented an office, and I was going to have this grand opening, I had it all set up with the Chamber of Commerce for the 23rd of March. What's wrong with that date? We went into closed down here in Delaware, march 16. So I started my, in my office, it was nice, I could escape from the rest of the family was working at home, I could go to my office. Any patients, essentially any clients. So after a year as it is just not it's not gonna end. Yeah, maybe every time I think, Oh, I'll do that. Another lockdown. Another lockdown. I don't know how your numbers went in Texas. But over here in the northeast, they were all the time
Gabriel 32:22
wave like everywhere else. Waves are no different.
Denise 32:27
Yeah. And actually, it's really very effective online. I mean, there's something nice about the energy of being in the same room with somebody. But most people are now are so used to communicating through zoom or some similar equivalent. Oh, yes, yeah, that it's pretty natural. And you're in your own safe environment. The changes that happen in hypnosis are happening in the client's head. And they can all like the only thing that's that feels still a little odd, I think it's my Englishness showing is that I say, when we finish this session, I will say hi, how are you feeling? Good. I'll see you next week. And we'll close because I want them to stay sort of in that.
Gabriel 33:09
You don't want to interrupt.
Denise 33:11
why do you think yeah, I want them to be paid out, I'm fading away, they can go about their business, I tell them to at least sit in the chair for at least five or 10 minutes after we finish. But if you've got an extra half an hour, just sit there and just take in the day, relax, you don't have whereas if you see somebody in person, they're gonna have to leave your office, go find their car, drive away somewhere else. And just it you sort of waste some of the effects. You know, it's really nice. The audios. Like there's a disclaimer at the front that says there is no wake up on this if you need to wake up set an alarm. Because I want I want to listen to it as they fall asleep. So it can really integrate and not be disturbed by other thoughts that crowd in amongst them. So it seems to work quite well. And usually, the second time I see people that say, I'm sleeping so well. I think so nice, sleep is wonderful. It's very curative.
Gabriel 34:10
Well, well, you know, there's a lot of people out there that so what would you recommend for sleeping because it is becoming more popular, you know, helps with aging affects, you know, health in general, I mean, the importance of sleep. So because we all do it, right, you lay down, it's quiet. And then 1000 things rush through your head that you know, you either got to do or this or that or something that's on your mind. And you're trying to just left with these, these thoughts. So
Denise 34:38
assuming that somebody assuming that somebody doesn't have an actual sleep disorder, right. Yeah, it's just general relaxation stuff. I have various audios that I will give people for them to just listen to at night as they fall asleep and it will depend on what their conversation with me has been. I don't lie took a lot of hypnotists to put the sort of their their lead magnet for their their products. Now here I have a free tape, I prefer it to be a bit more personalized up front. The first time I was ever hypnotized by a fellow student was online he was in, I think it was in Kentucky actually. He was he was hypnotizing me. And he said, and remember, I'm English so I got a very set idea of what the seashore is, he is not English, he's talking to me. And he say, so we're going to take you and you're going to this nice beach, and you sit by the fire and my mind's going whathe h*** a fire doing on the beach! So you need to get to know the client so that you can introduce things that that fit with their view of the world and get to understand their words have a way that would speak to themselves. So that when you form your suggestions, you you can feed them back so that it's in a way that they would be more likely to accept. If I were to suggest to somebody something that really went against the grain, they they would reject it. It's not, not necessarily your conscious mind will kick in, but you just wouldn't take. But when I'm dealing with women with self worth issues, I had quite a few people following COVID As we began to open up, who had spent two years, I had three women on a row who were suddenly single, either by death or divorce. And they didn't know how to get, they were they were used to having friends that were used to going out and being with people. They hadn't done that for two years. And and they just couldn't. They were terrified, not terrified, but they were they were very uncomfortable going out socially. And so those were the things that we worked that that we worked on for a start, they were talking to me that's that's one person you've just met, right you you're okay doing this. And the funniest one was a lady who was a very fixed income. So I did a very sweetheart deal for her. She was lovely. She really was she used to like dancing, and she wanted to go dancing again. That's okay. And she, she just couldn't do that. So she came back to me. So the idea was that she would go out and she would socialize, and she would feel comfortable. She'd be able to have coffee with people that came back and she said, No, it doesn't. It was nice. I like your voice but and I didn't really do anything. So okay, what's going on? Then the last two weeks? Well, I joined the golf club, and I've done this and I'm gonna walking. I've booked a trip to XYZ and I've I'm going to Ireland for in July and but it didn't work. Okay, that's fine.
Call me if
you need me. This her mind didn't want her to go dancing. He wanted to somehow certain she plays golf. That's good.
Gabriel 38:07
Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, you can always you can hit your hole in one and there'll be dancing for that, I guess. But.
Denise 38:16
But thank you for letting me talk about that. Why do you think? Why do you think doctors are resistant against the idea of hypnosis? Not everybody is like, a lot of us are? Great. I'll send you people. But
Gabriel 38:29
yeah, I think I don't think I mean, it's different for everybody. Right? So my interpretation is, I just don't know, if there's enough awareness out there, that breaks the kind of cliche image of someone, you know, snapping their fingers or with a watch. You know, I think that I think that if hypnosis was more reshaped, to in to get, you know, it's not the act, it's the endpoint. And I think if it was kind of brought to awareness like that, like it's good for anxiety, it's good for behavioral therapy, if you're trying to quit. If there's an aspect of your life, like smoking or difficulty sleeping, or there's something that you either want to quit or improve, then I think that, you know, it finds its place very easy. In the healthcare system. I don't think it's it's not taught, you know, that well, in most aspects of, you know, medical education. Could it you know, so I think it could be better there. I think it does have its role, whether we realize we're using it or not in surgery, whether it's, you know, anesthesia, or surgeon or even, for example, a pediatric ER doctor, I mean, putting placing stitches in a six year old can be a very challenging task when
Denise 39:58
I told you, that's why ;m so mad, they didn't teach me. Well, that's the thing is
Gabriel 40:02
in their son, it's like, come on parents holding child. Maybe there's some local involved or something else to distract him. But it's usually, you know, a loved one, you know, kind of taking their mind away from it. And I think so I think that I think that the broader view of hypnosis, physicians just need to be healthcare providers in general need to be aware of, I've never really seen it where it was shunned or shamed. In the, I've never seen, I've personally never witnessed of a health care provider or physician saying, you know, it's absolute garbage. Usually what I hear is, they're like hypnosis, oh, if I have patients who have trouble with smoking, or sleep disorder, I'll send them for that. But then that's all it's really limited to
Denise 40:53
my family, my family practitioner when he heard I was good, I've got so I haven't the person I used to send them to for smoking isn't here anymore. Give me your card. Never never sends me anything else?
Gabriel 41:05
Oh, my gosh, I mean, there is I think the other one would be that we've actually tried for chronic pain management is acupuncture patients where they're like, you know, this isn't working this and in again, I think physicians are trying to get use get away from just prescribing different types of medication. I think there is a trend away from that, that there are more more more more modalities. But acupuncture would be one another good example, good, you know, that, you know, in the hypnotic, or hypnosis kind of category would be like massage therapy. Like, I had some patients and they're like, I'm tight here, and I'm here and, and I can't move anything. And they say I may have, you know, like, or fibromyalgia and I'm like, I think that you just I think you just need a really good physical therapist and massage out and you need to stretch and, and lose weight and trying to get back into shape. But, you know, but trying to pair disease with this, I just think you need to just start moving again. You know. So that's kind of where I would feel hypnosis falls, we just utilize it better and better awareness.
Denise 42:18
One of the one of the people I'm hoping to interview not on this show, because this is only doctor to doctor is a colleague in Italy, who is a doctor is a Doctor of Physical Therapy. He works in acute stroke. Yeah, from from the very beginning, because the neuroplasticity part of it is is really his work is phenomenal. I really, it's a little difficult to understand accent wise, but he's really, really interesting. And he helped me a lot when I had a friend have a stroke recently. And I contacted him. Very helpful. So thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure face. It's been delightful. Yeah. Do you think of anything else you want to chat about? Or, you know, be kind of fun for you and your wife because you're a two physician couple and I think that, yeah,?
It's been lovely having you as a guest. Thank you.
Gabriel 43:19
You're welcome.
Denise 43:19
Thank you for joining us at myth magic medicine. If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free CME credits for the link provided in the transcript. If you're not a medical professional, please remember, while we're physicians, we're not your physicians, so please consult with your own health care professional if you think something you have heard might apply to you or a loved one. Until next time, bye bye
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