Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis and the benefits that offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor and consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapist talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the Episode
Martin Furber 0:39
Hi there welcome to another edition of to hypnotherapist talking with myself, Martin Furber, my good friend and colleague Denise Billen Mejia.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:47
That's me. Hi, everybody. And today, we're introducing Dr. Sue Peacock in the UK, who is a health psychologist. And she's going to explain exactly what that is for the Americans, because we don't call people that. And also talk about her special interest, which is pain and anxiety. So thank you, Sue. It's so nice of you to join us today.
Dr Sue Peacock 1:11
Thank you very much, for asking me, it's an honour thank you.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:13
So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where are you in the UK are you South or up North?
Dr Sue Peacock 1:21
I'm sort of, well I have two clinics, well, I'm online really most of the time at the minute, but pre COVID I had a clinic in Milton Keynes in a clinic in Bedford. So I guess Bedford is probably about 50 miles north of London, I guess, a wee bit further. Milton Keynes is probably best known as being one of the cities between Cambridge and Oxford it's kind of midway. So, that's where I am. I've been a psychologist for 25 years now. I worked in the NHS for over 20 years. And about five years ago, I went into private practice, which is fabulous, lots of freedom. And I can see who I like and choose how I treat people. So it's fabulous, yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:47
That's great. So what differentiates a health psychologist from what we in the states will call a clinical psychologist.
Dr Sue Peacock 2:22
In the UK, there's lots of different branches of psychology. Health Psychology is a relatively new discipline in terms of speciality, I guess, I tend to specialise in physical health. So a lot of the patients I will see will be chronic pain patients, people with cancer, or those who are living beyond cancer. I see a lot of respiratory patients. Yeah, anybody who's got a long term health condition is really the people that I see. I also see quite a lot of people with with insomnia, and then the insomnia is actually secondary to the health condition that they have.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:08
Or perhaps causing it because sleep deficits can cause so many problems. How did you become interested in hypnosis?
Dr Sue Peacock 3:22
Yeah, hypnosis has always been one of those strange things that kind of fascinated me really, you know, having seen on TV, like most people, before you even delve into it. I really first got interested, I was working in a pain clinic in a sort of a local general kind of hospital. And, you know, the techniques that we're taught like CBT, which, you know, is, is a good therapy for some, but it's not, it's not right for everybody. And that was kind of back in the day before Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and all of these other things, and mindfulness, all that have come out. So it was about trying to do the best for my patients, really and trying to find something that worked for them that was going to make their lives a little bit better whether we could get rid of the pain or whether we could just turn it down to 'it's manageable' so they could get on with their lives. Even of going out and having a cup of tea with friends and not being sort of socially isolated, or some of them are able to do voluntary work or go back to some kind of paid work, or just you know, get their lives back really.
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:26
Of course being isolated makes pain worse. You've got nothing to distract you from the pain.
Dr Sue Peacock 4:33
No, no, it's one of the reasons why we set up a support group, it's what we used to find was we used to we run, we used to run a pain management programme, which back in the day was very much CBT. Now is more sort of acceptance/Commitments, but back, back then,
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:50
if actually if I could just stop you there. That's not a term I'm familiar with. It's probably called something else over here. Could you just briefly, a little little segue talk about that for a second.
Dr Sue Peacock 5:04
Cognitive Behaviour Therapies is basically it's about changing the way we see things, right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:11
Well, that's a term very much used in the States. But but the other one, the acceptance,
Dr Sue Peacock 5:16
Acceptance and Commitment theory, that's for basically a, what they call a third wave CBT. So it's kind based around CBT. But it's more about acceptance, and looks at the values that you hold and how they interconnect. You can use those to build a meaningful life despite pain. Yeah, so what we used to find was, after about five years, people would come back, not because their pain was any better or any worse, they just wanted to validate their pain, really. So we sort of set up the support group it's still going about 19 years later. It's quite good. But so yeah, so what we found with that, that wasn't really a medically psychology thing, okay, I'd do the odd talk, but more or less, because in who we know, into gardening, and quizzes and sort of social things, so people could get get their lives back and have friends, but it was like friends who understood.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:15
Exactly.
Dr Sue Peacock 6:16
It wasn't going to be the end of the world. You know, they're, they're excited to see how they were when they wouldn't stop wobbling, like friends with pain, without pain used to do. Yeah. So that was quite good and got people out. And, you know, at least once a month, they didn't think about their pain. As we would often joke and have fun.
Martin Furber 6:38
Did you find that people readily adapted to a supportive atmosphere of group therapy, as opposed to you know, 'My pain is worse than your pain' type of thing?
Dr Sue Peacock 6:46
Yeah, it's interesting, because when they used to first start on the pain management programme, we used to have a kind of a rule that they weren't going to talk about their pain. They could come and talk to me or my colleagues, but they couldn't talk in the group about their pain. You know, they do have those pain competitions. Medication you've had that, I had that, you know, so we so because they'd all been on the pain management programme, first, it was kind of this unsaid rule that we didn't really talk about our pain in the support group. So it was it kind of, you know, transferred, that, you know, if I was there, and they want to talk about the pain, they come and talk to me, but they wouldn't sort of take call and tell everybody about about their pain so that worked quite well.
Martin Furber 7:30
So, the whole run of the meeting would be one big distraction from pain then in effect?
Dr Sue Peacock 7:35
Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:38
So once a month? Once a month?
Dr Sue Peacock 7:39
Yes, once a month and then when they got a little bit braver, some of them who liked arts and crafts and that kind of thing, set up their own little group.
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:48
That's good!
Dr Sue Peacock 7:49
Yeah, it's good. It's really good that they kind of felt that they had the confidence to do it. So they have now they've got once, once a fortnight, there's the craft group. And then the other fortnight is the general support groups. So there's at least two things. And lots of them have got a lot of little groups within the support group, if you know what I mean. So they'll meet for coffee and go to houses and go for walks and some of them go to disability swimming sessions together and all that kind of stuff.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:15
I would imagine that, that allows them because they know that everybody understands chronic pain and how it can disrupt your life. If you call and say I can't make it this week, you don't have you don't get the sort of the eyeroll from from, "Oh you again and your pain." Because it does, yeah, it's exhausting, that in itself is exhausting.
Dr Sue Peacock 8:36
Absolutely and trying to justify it all the time and then feeling really bad. And then you start saying no, because you don't go out because you don't want to let people down. So having this group of people who understand is really helpful.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:50
So where did you train first? Where, how did you first... since just this is two hypnotherapists talking, we're going to go on about the hypnosis. But please, if you want to talk about something else, go ahead. But, but my real question is. Where did you take your first? When did you first? Did you read in general first and then decide that you wanted to look at a particular author or?
Dr Sue Peacock 9:11
No, I just what I first off did was, I just looked, I think I just did a Google search to be honest about hypnotherapy. And then I saw this one that was, it was a sort of a slightly shortened version for healthcare professionals. And so, yeah, it was about 10 weekends, I think 12 weekends something like that once a month. Which I've since since learned that isn't that short at all. So yeah, so So I did that really. And then you had this sort of option of once you kind of got your diploma you had this option of doing an advanced diploma, which was more kind of really research. It was more of a sort of looking at the ethics of it all, and so that that was quite interesting. And then as I said, about five years ago, I did a far more practical one, which, for me, gave me the confidence to use it much more. You know, just give it a go and see what happens.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:17
In a typical, not that there's that many typical patients, but somebody who has been sent to you or somehow wound up at your door, now they are no longer within the NHS. But presumably, somebody said, I know this psychologist, she'll probably be able to help you with your pain, what would be the first thing you would offer them? Obviously, you have an intake, which is probably longer than the 20 minutes that Martin and I do to make sure that it's not too...
Dr Sue Peacock 10:45
I guess my first session is probably, well they're roughly an hour. I guess the first session that you say is the intake finding out about the pain? What's it like how long they've had it, what medications they're on? Who else are they seeing all that kind of stuff. What's the biggest impact on their life? What areas of life? Is it affecting? And then my last question tends to be...
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:10
Is it, excuse me, is there a lot of secondary agenda stuff?
Dr Sue Peacock 11:17
I would say no, I think that's thinking about the time in the pain clinic, there's probably only about two people that we've ever thought that about. And it was quite funny is that the consultant I used to work with, she was an anaethetist, and yeah, she's retired now, bless her; but she was great. And we had this lady outside our room once and pain clinics, I mean all NHS clinics run late, don't we and we know, was notoriously always running late in our clinics, because we spend time talking and listening. And everyone who kind of was a regular kind of knew that. So it was fine. They didn't mind too much. But there was this one lady who was a new lady once and she was getting really upset. And the nurse kept coming in and said, You got to hurry up you've got to see his lady, she's in tears, she's in tears. So we kind of juggled things and got her in sooner. And, you know, she was she seemed reasonably genuine, like, you know, especially. And my colleague thought the same. And then, as soon as we had finished, we looked out the window and saw her literally sprinting up the hill, running for a bus.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:21
That wouldn't be what I would refer to a secondary agenda, that would be more sort of fraud. And on the other hand, maybe your session was so fabulous, she felt so much better. Yeah, I was thinking more that people, that the agendas that people don't realise they have. Oh, they don't realise that they gain a lot of other sympathy. I mean, the, it runs out of but oh, there is...
Dr Sue Peacock 12:47
I think the...
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:48
It stops the kids moving to Australia, because Mum's sick that kind of thing.
Dr Sue Peacock 12:52
There's a few of those. But to be fair, I don't know that I've seen many of them. I think, because of the nature of, particularly of pain clinics in the UK, because it takes absolutely ages to even get there. I think all that's gone. And all the sympathies been left behind years ago. So I, I don't very often see even, even in my practice now. But I guess that's because of the people that refer to me. I don't see people who have had pain for like a year or so, very often. It's more liklely people who've had pain for 7, 8, 9, 10, 20 years.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:30
Now, do you feel that that's a failing of the system? Do you think we would, it would, be better if we could interrupt that cycle a little earlier?
Dr Sue Peacock 13:39
Absolutely. Yes. Which is one of the good things about was starting to develop over hear is they are having pain services in primary care, and that's a good thing. If they're run properly, and they're multidisciplinary. I think that would be good. And you know, I think that's starting to happen now. So I think that is one positive thing that is changing.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:02
Do you... to be in a pain clinic do you have to know the origin of the pain?
Dr Sue Peacock 14:09
No, not necessarily. I think it's one of those things, isn't it pain is so personal, you know, you could be referred, for pain it could be because you've got pain in your back doesn't necessarily mean it's coming from your back. It could be something else couldn't it. So, we didn't necessarily always have to have a set diagnosis as such and even now, I see people who just tell me they've got pain so we don't have like, you know, a set diagnosis of arthritis or whatever. It's just very, it's just pain. And even the ones who come to me who do the doctor shopping thing, you know, trying to be who you know, they could go around and they tell they hope to find something that's gonna you know, magic cure for them. You know, even then they'll say I've got this diagnosis, that diagnosis must say, let's just call it pain, you've got chronic pain.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:09
I like to write less! Do you do many of your patients / clients... We have to call them clients here, but you as a licenced physician, a licenced doctor of psychology - You can call them patients! Do you see many who are on opioids or other pain medications as well?
Dr Sue Peacock 15:33
Yes. Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:34
Okay.
Dr Sue Peacock 15:36
Yeah. Obviously, that works quite well in pain clinics, because you have the doctors and the nurses so that's a good referral system, you know, you can say, Well, can you go and see the doctor, the nurse, they want to reduce friction. For now, what I tend to do is if they've been referred quite a lot of my patients / clients are referred by pain doctors. So I'd refer, go to them and say, we've done this therapy with them. We've done this we've done that whatever. Their pains have improved now, I think you need to.. please could you consider reducing their medication, and then you know, leave it to them, because obviously, they do the medication, and you know we have to be respectful of that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:20
When you're seeing clients, do you find it equivalent to be working online or in person? Or do you find one works better than the other? Or does it just depend on the client?
Dr Sue Peacock 16:33
I think it depends on the client. It's an interesting question, isn't it really because before COVID I would never have dreamed of working online at length. You know 'As soon as I can go back to my clinic that's what I'm going to do.' But it's interesting because most, I keep now, now and again, I say to my clients, if I went back to clinic which do you prefer? To see me that there and they'll say well, we like to see you, but we prefer you like this, because you know it's quicker you know, there's no parking issues there's no time to get there.
I think anyone who's suffering with anything that stress related, that they're quite happy to see, you know, to see people online.
I was really surprised because...
Martin Furber 17:11
I say you know there's there isn't the travelling problem the parking-up which is always stressful and the expense...
Dr Sue Peacock 17:18
And then you know, some of my chronic pain patients not that I encourage this...you know, turn up in their pyjamas online. So I know it's gonna be, it's a bad day when they've turned up in their pyjamas but you know, but you know, they haven't had to have that that stress and that pain if it's a bad day of getting dressed and getting washed and whatever to come out so...
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:39
And therefore they may not have to miss the appointment whereas physically they might have had to
Dr Sue Peacock 17:44
Yeah, yeah, so I think there's there's good and bad I've I've definitely got much more used to it. Like I say everyone's quite happy online at the minute I'm kind of getting a little bit of Cabin-Fever sitting in my back bedroom for so long but you know...
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:01
Did you actually close down your clinics or if you still...
Dr Sue Peacock 18:05
I sort of I've still got, the one in Milton Keynes is still going and I still do a lot, I don't actually physically go there. But I still see people that are there kind of thing. My Bedford clinic because it was a it was a room in a house and that the house got sold so I haven't actually got that room anymore. When I eventually go back, well when the demand's there to go back to face-to-face I shall be looking for somewhere else but I'll probably have the, where my clinic is at Milton Keynes it's at a private hospital and they've got one in sort of Bedford way. So probably hopefully get a room there.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:45
How many clients do you see on an average day? I assume it was quite a lot when you're under the NHS.
Dr Sue Peacock 18:54
Yeah, in the NHS, it's quite a lot to be fair it's just as, probably just as much now. I probably see... I try not to see more than seven a day. Occasionally I see a few more but it's not by choice. It's more than an...
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:13
At an hour a person plus all the paperwork...
Dr Sue Peacock 19:16
Yeah, it's a very long day. I try not to work Fridays. I try and keep Fridays as my admin day. But, but you know, I mean, it's my least favourite bit of the job so I can easily be distracted from that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:32
What's the most interesting client you've seen? Do you think?
Dr Sue Peacock 19:35
I think, oh, there's been so many over the years.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:41
I mean, interesting from a clinical perspective, everybody's an interesting person because they're all unique.
Dr Sue Peacock 19:45
From an interesting point of view. As in interesting to us. I saw a young girl who was about 17 Because I don't very often see young people I usually see sort of adults. She was about 17 and I only saw her because nobody else would really, so I said OK then. So she had basically been involved in a road traffic accident. I don't know if you know Milton Keynes, but it's notorious for roundabouts. It's called whiplash city. I work here, even I've had an accident on one of the roundabouts. But anyway, but yeah, so she she was a young girl she was she had had an accident basically, she was in the family car and she was in the backseat and they'd come around a roundabout a car had basically gone into them. And long story cut short, she got back pain and trauma, post traumatic stress type from from the accident.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:47
She was the driver?
Dr Sue Peacock 20:49
No she was the passenger. Yeah, I think it was her Mum who was the driver. And yeah, she was she was interesting, because when she came to me, she was a very kind of stereotypical pain patient very gingerly, walking about not really, not really bending and kind of rigid and had done the physio, done the... even, you know how they tend to have to do the rounds before they get to pain clinics. Excuse me. So yeah, so she comes to me and we had a bit of a chat and we looked at the pain how it's impacted her life. She was supposed to be doing her A-levels but she wasn't doing her A-levels she was off to school. She was absolutely terrified to go in the car every time she went in the car she screamed, and apparently her poor Mum, one of the first appointments with me she came to, she came from Luton to Milton Keynes, which is...
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:42
That's a ways...
Dr Sue Peacock 21:43
About 20, 25 miles or something, I think. And yeah, probably a wee bit further. But anyway, but she literally apparently screamed the whole way, because she was so terrified about being in the car. So we kind of had, you know, the initial chat as we do. And it really emerged that pain was almost secondary to the post traumatic stress. So we did some EMDR on her for the trauma. And that, what was interesting was we did that, and the pain lessened. And then we did some hypnosis, and the pain went. So we had about five, six sessions, I guess. And yeah, and then I normally email them a couple of months afterwards say, 'Hey, how you doing?' kind of thing. And yeah, she she had gone back to school and studying her A-levels, and what's more incredible, she was actually learning to drive. It was great. And she got her life back on track and you know, for somebody so affected, is a really big thing for her.
That's wonderful!
Martin Furber 22:55
That's a great success story. Sue, just for the benefit of our listeners, because we're appealing to everybody can we just enlighten them as to what EMDR may be.
Dr Sue Peacock 23:04
Oh, I need to think about this now.
Martin Furber 23:06
I always regard EMDR as a type of hypnotherapy anyway.
Dr Sue Peacock 23:12
It stands for Eye Movement, Desensitisation and Reprocessing. And basically, it's a NICE guidelines treatment for trauma. And I'm not sure anybody really knows how it works. It seems to be quite vague, because I do like you say, I think a lot of it is quite hypnotic really. I think the nice thing about it is you don't have to keep reliving the trauma and keep talking about it. Whereas CBT for trauma, you kind of talk about it, talk about it, talk about it, talk about about it that you are.. whereas
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:45
And you come back to the next session and say it all over again.
Martin Furber 23:48
Yeah, and just amplify it even more!
Dr Sue Peacock 23:52
I was so glad that I could have better things in that. So yeah, so So yeah, that's what we did. And you know, over time, she, we sort of did that you know, below grade exposure stuff as well. And yeah, it was just really nice to get this email back to tell me that she started the driving lessons.
Martin Furber 24:15
Fantastic. Sue can I just take you a little bit back to earlier in this conversation? Just because we're entering coughing and spluttering season at the moment, you mentioned hypnotherapy and respiratory conditions, you know, perhaps now asthma, COPD, bronchiectasis that type of thing. Can we talk about that a little bit because I think some of our listeners and viewers may find that really beneficial?
Dr Sue Peacock 24:39
Yeah, I think for a lot of people, as we've kind of alluded to earlier with long term health conditions, a lot of it is about anxiety, and the fear of making it worse. And I think because when people get anxious, they hold the body quite stiffly, don't they and they seem to kind of, in a naturally protective kind of way. And because they're holding themselves so tight and so stiff, they probably can't even breathe properly. If you've got a lot of relaxation stuff, we do quite a lot of this. This is quite fun, but quite childish, but it's quite fun. We get, you know, bubbles that you had as a kid with a little wand and the washing up liquid? We do quite a lot of that. Yeah, because we're all naturally really competitive, aren't we? So we always blow the biggest bubbles that we can so and then relaxation, the outward breath is the longer breath. So you know, when I used to see people in person, we'd be blowing bubbles together, it can be quite fun. Good job nobody came in really because they'd look and think 'She's gone mad!' But that was quite good possibly because it's relaxing, partly because for a lot of people it evoked the times of being a kid when life was fairly straightforward and quite stress-free.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:00
And they're smiling. It just lifts that... just like smiling and laughing, really does make you feel better.
Dr Sue Peacock 26:07
And we always try and laugh because laughter is the best medicine really, isn't it? You know, it makes you breathe deeper, doesn't it? So it's also another good reason. Those kinds of things. So yeah, we'd be trying to have fun in my sessions.
Martin Furber 26:23
Sounds like it!
Dr Sue Peacock 26:24
We don't need to be all serious and suited and booted. But we did have fun.
Martin Furber 26:28
Yeah, good. I'm just thinking from sort of from attacking the problem from two angles because with breathing difficulties, as somebody with asthma and COPD myself. I know when I first started to learn hypnotherapy being hypnotised, just the act of the breaths, following what the hypnotist is telling you is, in that moment, is helping you because it's a breathing exercise. Yeah, yeah. And then the long term effects of it afterwards as well, of course, as you say, with stress reduction, with holding yourself better...
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:01
It brings your blood pressure down...
Martin Furber 27:02
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Dr Sue Peacock 27:04
I think you breathe properly. Then you went when you're in hypnotherapy, you don't do that chest breathing thing, like we all do, but you kind of breathe like we're supposed to do so it's, it's much more relaxing, isn't it? And we learn to breathe better.
Martin Furber 27:16
And breathe out more slowly.
Dr Sue Peacock 27:19
Yeah, yes. That's why we use the bubbles. Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:25
Start sending it right now . For your session, please get a bottle of bubbles...
Martin Furber 27:30
And talking about something else you mentioned earlier, Sue. I know you've just come on here to have a chat with us. But I need to mention something now. Because you mentioned long COVID and I know you've co-authored a book on long COVID Haven't you? Yes. So I'm gonna put a slide on it at the end. No problem. It's...What is it? Coping with long COVID? Have you got a copy handy?
Dr Sue Peacock 27:55
Oh, somewhere.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:59
The disappearance of the imaginary wilderness behind you.
Martin Furber 28:02
You're like Tinkerbell in the woods there!
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:09
Yeah, it's good.
Martin Furber 28:10
Coping with Long COVID
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:12
Put in front of you. Because it's Oh, you're just showing it from my Yes, that's it. Excellent.
Martin Furber 28:17
Excellent, I will put a slide with the actual cover of the book at the end of the video for people. As I say I I've got a copy of the book. That's why I remembered it.
Dr Sue Peacock 28:28
Oh, thank you for buying it.
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:32
Actually, COVID also gave us all an additional area. Not that it wouldn't have been useful anyway. But so many people have a needle phobia. It's another area that hypnosis can be so much help.
Dr Sue Peacock 28:47
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Before long COVID. Part of my sessions in the hospital were in the cancer unit and we used it there, you know, when people used to come in and need their chemo and whatever. And they have a little bit of a meltdown. So I would quite often get paged, 'If you're not in clinic, can you come down?', so yeah, I did teach one of the nurses down there a little bit of therapy. I wasn't there. Because she was, you know, I literally really had one day a week was contracted there.
Martin Furber 29:21
That would be an incredibly strong fear to have, if you were having chemo for cancer, and your fear of that needle was greater than your fear of cancer. Yeah, that is a strong fear.
Dr Sue Peacock 29:34
Absolutely! Absolutely, so yeah, I think you know, with a few little you know, hypnosis techniques and a little bit of singing and a bit of tapping and a bit of everything and yeah, we could get the needle in singing was surprisingly good. Not that I'm a good singer at all!
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:53
It's breathing again.
Dr Sue Peacock 29:55
Yeah, breathing. Yeah, so it was quite nice to teach one of the nurses a few sort of basic techniques so that, that was helpful. Because like I said she was there all the time. So she could deal with most people if I was in clinic or whatever.
Martin Furber 30:11
Sue, just from a personal point of view, because you've worked in the NHS and you work privately, we all know that the NHS, is it the NICE website where they recommend hypnotherapy for IBS and for other things as well? But the NHS don't fund or provide hypnotherapy. Where do you see it going? And where would you personally like to see it going?
Dr Sue Peacock 30:32
I think there's probably a few people like me when I worked in the NHS, who would use it and nobody realised until I used to write the clinic letters. I like to think that they're becoming more enlightened. I think because there's more evidence base about it now isn't there there is some decent research plus, especially by that guy in America called Mark Jensen. I think he's called. He does some really quite... I think he's called that, I've got one of his books somewhere. Yeah, Mark Jensen. He's done some really quite good research around chronic pain. And I think there's lots of researchers know about IBS. And I think, if people took the time to look there, it's actually sort of an epic thing, isn't it? But there is quite a lot of evidence out there. So I think if, I think you probably could make a case. If you can't, if I think if you're working in the NHS already, and you wanted addition to say your pain clinic or whatever, I think the burden on pain clinics not the best one really because they're always under resourced. Cancer Services say, they're probably you could make a case I would guess for some kind of services, perhaps.
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:53
I remember when one of my relatives was going through treatment for cancer, this is quite a while back, they had a lot of services because the wait time you go in, you get your blood work, you have to wait around. So you would see the social worker, this person or that person, but they had aromatherapy and a whole lot of things. I don't see why it wouldn't be incorporated. At that level, it would be useful.
Dr Sue Peacock 32:17
Yeah, I think it'd be really useful. I think there are some places that do do that. I know. Some hospices definitely do that. I know my local hospice doesn't really does now but it definitely used to offer therapy and aromatherapy and all sorts of sort of alternative.
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:33
No, not alternative because it's an alternative to...
Martin Furber 32:36
Complementary.
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:37
Yes, complementary is good.
Dr Sue Peacock 32:40
One of the things at the pain clinic, that we used to do reflexology, and acupuncture and all things like that. Sadly, when the nurse retired, they didn't get anybody to do the reflexology again. But we always had acupuncture and things like that. So I think I think well funded services like cancer services, but the degree with that they're well funded or not I do for my in comparison to a pain clinic there what I think they could probably make case I like to think that in the future that more people will be kind of a bit like me and learn new techniques for, to give to offer choice to the patient.
Denise Billen-Mejia 33:20
Love it. A lot of it is just exposure. We don't talk about it early enough in training for people to realise it. I have one client who has a seizure disorder and so I see her physically. Almost all my clients I see online, but a local doctor, her local doctor who's an easy walk for me. So, I'm seeing her over at their office and I had a big, they had a big meeting with all of the staff from clinic on their admin day about the fact that I was going to be around, I was actually, I was allowed but in the back. And the nurse practitioner who does the reproductive services, who places IUDs, Oh, would it work for this. Yeah, when we teach you - I could learn this? Yes, you could learn this!
Dr Sue Peacock 34:15
It is such a big world of opportunity isn't there that you know, needs to be filled.
Denise Billen-Mejia 34:23
Right, but first we have to get it recognised and get away from the pocket watches and the cloaks and Woo-Woo stuff yeah,
Martin Furber 34:31
Can I just clarify Denise? You're not talking about a hypnotic IUD there are you in the same way as a hypnotic gastric band? Because, I don't think that would work!
Denise Billen-Mejia 34:38
No, I am not! I would not recommend it. Although there are hypnotists who work in fertility on the other side of. Yeah. But yeah, is to deal with the fear of pain, which is associated with the procedure. It's a very simple procedure.
Martin Furber 34:58
Yes, to deal with the invasion as well I would imagine it's very personal procedure.
Denise Billen-Mejia 35:01
Yes, so there are probably 1000 Other things that would be useful in that clinic setting.
Dr Sue Peacock 35:10
Yeah. Well, good job you're there because you can spread the word.
Denise Billen-Mejia 35:13
Yeah. Well, we gotta get through the attorneys. There's all sorts of legal things, but I am allowed to at least see this one client there and talk to the staff. So that's ok.
Dr Sue Peacock 35:26
it's a starting point.
Denise Billen-Mejia 35:27
Yes, it's a starting point.
Martin Furber 35:28
For me, it's just like a mission to get hypnotherapy accepted, as ot talking therapies are accepted. Or as EMDR is accepted. As you say, with EMDR they're not exactly quite sure how it works. And same could be said with hypnotherapy. We know it brings down stress and helps anything that is exacerbated by stress. We know it's good for dealing with... for distracting, for building, you know, new positive thinking processes. But this, I still don't think that you can summarise the whole thing in a paragraph and say exactly how it works.
Dr Sue Peacock 36:06
No, I don't think so. I think there's there's so many. There's so many different angles to isn't there, and I think this I think probably most people respond differently depending on what they bring into your clinic.
Martin Furber 36:20
Okay, really controversial question then, because you're both doctors and I'm not, I'm just a therapist. Okay. Doctor Denise hypnotherapy - Pseudoscience? Yes or no?
Denise Billen-Mejia 36:31
Absolutely not pseudoscience. Lots of evidence that it works.
Martin Furber 36:35
Doctor Sue, pseudoscience Yes or No?
Dr Sue Peacock 36:37
.Oh, no I don't think so.
Martin Furber 36:39
Now, great. It doesn't matter what I think because I'm not a doctor.
Denise Billen-Mejia 36:48
I think there's a tendency for people to make up things in order to make. It's like when you talk about the theory of mind. Obviously, it's a model, we don't have a look, this is the mind, we can't do that. But you have to explain things somehow. This is the way I'm explaining it today. It's not. It's just not that simple. We don't understand where our awareness where our conscience, it's not, it's not this little box. And you remember back in the day, when we thought that memories were just in little tiny bits of little box and you pick up, if that little box got disturbed, that memory was gone forever. It just so much more complicated, so much more interesting that and yet, you don't need to know that, to do hypnosis, or to or to use hypnosis, because all hypnosis is self hypnosis, for us to teach our patients or clients depending on which side of the planet you're on, as to what you can call them. You don't have to know the science of it, or worry about the research in order for them to receive benefit. That the research is fascinating. It certainly will guide new uses of hypnosis, but it's way less important than getting the word out. But this is something that is an incredibly cost effective way of dealing with fear and anxiety and pain. And a lot of other things too, but fear, anxiety and pain that covers a lot of it.
Martin Furber 38:20
But it's also a therapy that makes you feel really good. As opposed to what we were discussing earlier with some talking therapies where you're just revisiting the trauma, time after time, week after week. This is a therapy. I think that we could all agree can't we? That when our clients/patients leave us at the end of a session they feel better than when they arrive. They leave feeling better.
Dr Sue Peacock 38:43
Yes.
Denise Billen-Mejia 38:44
Of course, we do need to know that there's no 100% of anything. And no it doesn't work for everyone. Anybody who wishes to be hypnotised, will probably be hypnotised because it's a natural phenomena. But it may take a session or two for them to bring their defences down enough that they're able to fully join into the proceedings. But it just, it makes me so furious that I didn't learn this 40 years ago when I was graduating medical school. I should have known this then it would have been so useful in the emergency room, especially with small children. Because there's so much, they're little walking hypnotised people. It would have been so easy.
Martin Furber 39:32
Sue, getting back to pain for a minute. Do you have a lot, obviously you can't mention specific examples, but have you had the experience of people coming off long term painkillers? you know that the strong stuff? And hypnotherapy has helped them to either wean them off slowly or get them off or however you do it?
Dr Sue Peacock 39:55
Yeah, I think hypnotherapy thinking about some examples kind of over the years, I think what's the challenge is the client/patient believing that they can come off. There's actually agreeing for them to come off them. Although saying that that is getting a little bit better now, because there's this big thing about getting people off opioid, that they shouldn't be on really. But anyway, that's a whole other debate. So yes, I have seen people over the years reduce off of opioid medication. And there is a few that don't take any medication and a few that haven't got any pain at all. Whether that's down to hypnosis, or whether it's down to setting the seed with hypnosis, and they've just got on with their lives, and they've got so much in their lives now. It's still there, but they don't notice it. I don't know.
Martin Furber 40:53
Has hypnotherapy been helpful with people that were perhaps having withdrawal symptoms from opioids, not necessarily the pain coming back or the pain worsen, other symptoms of you know, associated with dependency.
Dr Sue Peacock 41:07
I think a lot of it would be around the anxiety aspects of it. And the fear of coming off the fear of withdrawal. I think quite a lot of it is about education, isn't it when they're coming? Not necessarily on my part, because I don't know huge amounts about the medication, but the doctor, hopefully, particularly pain doctors, you know, they take time, or the nurses to talk them through a withdrawal programme. So I think my end would be more about dealing with the anxiety and stress and worries of coming off. And making sure that they feel confident in their pain strategies, pain, coping strategies, enough to be confident that they can come off the medication.
Denise Billen-Mejia 41:52
I think that is worth. I think it's worth mentioning that because we're cheap, we teach people how to do this for themselves. It's not like come to you every two weeks, so that I don't have pain every two weeks, and then it wears off. And then I have to go to you again. No, eventually, you will learn enough of the techniques that you'll be able to do this for yourself. And it has a domino effect that oh, look, I'm going to the dentist. It works there too.
Dr Sue Peacock 42:20
Oh, yeah. It's incredible. When people realise how powerful it is, and like you say, with the different things they can use it for. It's just great. Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 42:32
It's interesting to me also that it's pretty much accepted that probably we use this in childbirth now. But nobody's surprised to hear that somebody used hypnosis. And yet they don't say they they're absolutely stunned that you can have a dental procedure under hypnosis. Yeah.
Dr Sue Peacock 42:51
Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? I think even in the NHS, the teaching some of the sort of Hypno birthing techniques to some midwives. So, you know, I think, I think that's quite encouraging in a way of getting hypnosis into the NHS. Albeit a very structured kind of way, not like we would see people if they come to our clinics. But I guess it's a start, isn't it? It's becoming more acceptable, so that can be a good thing.
Martin Furber 43:21
We're gonna have to leave it there for today. We're out of time. But can I just, I'm sorry, can Denise and I both extend our warmest thanks to you, Sue, for coming on here. It's brilliant. We're helping dispel the myths about hypnosis. And we're trying to get the word out there. So thank you, for joining us.
Denise Billen-Mejia 43:40
And people are able to self refer to you or do they need to refer through? They can they can self ? Okay, so watch closely, there'll be an end card that will give you details for contacting Sue, Dr. Sue Peacock. Thank you so much.
Martin Furber 43:55
Thanks Sue, See you next week, Denise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 43:57
OK
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember, this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 44:21
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
