Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who'd like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis, and the benefits that it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor turned consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:35
Episode three, and our thanks to Brenda last week. What are we talking about today Denise? Or are you going to reveal how we got, how we arrived at a topic today?
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:45
We are, we are going to reveal it, because every conversation I have, well not every conversation, obviously sometimes it's what we have for dinner. But so often conversations, nowadays our root, some aspects of AI is dismissed. I was at a big group of doctors on Tuesday night, Zooming Of course, and the topic of conversation then was AI, and is it going to replace radiologists, for example? Is it? How can it be used? And do we need to be worried about it? And then we've gotten to driving cars. You can cut some of this if you like, but it was a really fun conversation, and all of a sudden, technology failed us and the Zoom Room just closed mid sentence on somebody.
Martin Furber 1:29
Really?
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:30
Yeah, it was weird. But um, but I know that before you hit record, or right after you checked out with chat, GPT. Sorry, we're advertising, probably the most commonly known open source.
Martin Furber 1:43
Other ones are available.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:45
Yes, they are. But this one you can use for free. And that gave us a series of potential conversation starters, which I thought was kind of fun. And it gave us what 10?
Martin Furber 1:55
Something like that. Yeah, 'cos I mentioned that over here in the UK last week was Mental Health Awareness Week. This year's topic was anxiety. So I asked it for things to talk about, conversation starters. I found it quite useful.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:10
But people get anxious about AI.
Martin Furber 2:12
Yeah, yeah. Have you ever tried asking AI something like, you know, are you here to take over the world and see what it answers?
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:21
Yeah, I think sometimes you can joke back.
Martin Furber 2:23
Yeah. Yeah. It's the same as if you tell Alexa to self destruct. It'll go I am self destructing now. 10, 9, 8.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:37
So anxiety is a huge area, and everybody has anxiety. It's just, I think it's just your subconscious telling you stay in your comfort zone. And please, please stay in your comfort zone.
Martin Furber 2:49
I think for the public it's, one of those things, they see all these words, you know, how do you differentiate between, say, overwhelm, anxiety, stress, you know, stating to people what the differences are?
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:06
Well, if that's like saying somebody saying I'm depressed, not clinically, you won't, but I mean, they might be, but you need to explore it a bit more than that. It's not just feeling a bit sad.
Martin Furber 3:16
No, no, it's got to be for a minimum of two weeks, hasn't it, and have two or three more symptoms?
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:21
Right. So it's also what we use it colloquially and it diminishes the real disease of clinical depression, the various kinds, and also doesn't...tells people they're not supposed to feel sad, you're supposed to feel sad, some things aren't worth being sad about. Not taking over your life, not being you know, not to the point you can't function but, but the highs and lows need to be appreciated.
Martin Furber 3:51
Well, yeah, and also the risk of sounding like a Facebook meme. You know, if you don't experience sadness, how will you know happiness is?
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:59
Yeah, I suppose you have, you've had a client recently. I don't know if you can discuss your clients without giving away any details. But that person has experienced major sadness and anxiety, about major anxiety, anticipating being sad because of the triggers that will come with it. And that I think is something that since we're trying to promote hypnotherapy here, that is one of the things that hypnosis can really help with
Martin Furber 4:32
Yeah, from my point of view, from a sort of double pronged attack as well because one, I mean, as you say, any medical condition is exacerbated by stress. So hypnotherapy is brilliant for reducing stress, bringing the stress levels down. But on the other side of the coin, it's also really good for future positive rehearsal. So when somebody's got this feeling of impending doom, because they've got an event to go to. You know, that they'll imagine it in the worst case scenario many times over. With hypnosis with the process of them being relaxed and being amenable to the positive suggestions, you can direct their future focus in a positive way. You can help them mentally rehearse what's going to happen, and to see, you know, to pick out all the positives, or all possible positives of that future event. Yes, and point into the subconscious.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:30
Yeah, and point out that Martin isn't making up the things that are going to happen. Now this is, this is the client's mind, they know you've gone out of focus again!
Martin Furber 5:39
I'm just gone out of focus, excuse me, if you're watching on YouTube, there we go. I'll come back into focus in a minute, don't worry, I promise you. Actually, I probably look better with a soft lens.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:47
So it isn't mind control, it isn't the same...
Martin Furber 5:54
Far from it, this is empowerment.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:56
Exactly, you're allowing the person you're allowing person to relax enough to realise the positive things that they can find in their own mind. And they can then rehearse, how they can, how they'll be responding to...
Martin Furber 6:08
The thing is in these situations of future negative forecasting become self-perpetuating and self-fulfilling prophecies. Because the more you start to imagine something in a in a bad scenario, the more stressed you become, the more you'll imagine it and only goes you know. As that stress increases, you start to think of even more things that can go wrong.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:31
Yeah, and that is the natural thing that humans do. We catastrophise, everything.
Martin Furber 6:36
Going back to National Mental Health Awareness Week, which we had last week over here. This year's theme anxiety, what other ways do you think hypnosis can help with anxiety? Sort of like, say somebody's got generalised anxiety disorder, for example, and maybe, you know, they've had that diagnosis? And maybe they're being treated with medication by their doctor. Can you explain how hypnosis would possibly help that person as well as part of the toolkit?
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:07
It's exactly what we said, it's relaxation, and realising that the stressor isn't whatever it is, is a natural thing. Now, unfortunately, many people just are, it's their default position to feel anxious, they've had so much stress that their brain just, that's the pattern that's in their mind, and they're going to stay there because that's what they expect. And so we need to interrupt that. And that's true for just about everything in hypnosis, all we're doing is allowing them to close down the critical mind and the overthinking part. And just remember a time when they felt really confident and not anxious, and it may be back in childhood, but so long as they can remember what that felt like. They can sort of capture it, and put it back in their life.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:00
Yeah, well, this is it, if somebody has experienced great feelings if they can, I mean, I always sort of use one of my own from my own childhood. I can remember being a kid and one particular winter, we had really thick, heavy snow. And I can remember spending all day, I was about six, rolling a snowball bigger and bigger till he got bigger than me, going to bed that night, absolutely exhausted, but in the nicest possible way, feeling really tired out. But having had a fantastic day, going to bed and sleeping like a baby and waking up the next day, you know, wanting to do it all over again.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:36
With dreams of being in the Guinness Book of Records. That's a big snowball.
Martin Furber 8:41
You know, I always give that example, well not always, but I frequently give that example to my clients and ask them to try and recall a moment when they felt really good as a child like that. And as soon as they say that, I say, Well, you've obviously got the resources within you to feel happy, then.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:56
That's it. And that is what you want to capture so that they can have make sure they're giving themselves that feeling on a regular basis, which will then build that pathway that, or rediscover the pathway that they previously had. That they've been, to use your elephant metaphor, hadn't been trotten down for a while.
Martin Furber 9:18
Do you think though as adults, just as a as a whopping generalisation. Do you think as adults we forget how to just let go and feel that good and feel that happy?
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:28
Yeah.
Martin Furber 9:29
Do you think life is just too fast too involved?
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:31
Everything's a to do list. And it's just so much, so much, so much. Now, obviously, that is a generalisation. There are some people who, there are some people who don't worry enough. I mean, there are some things we do need to worry about because we need to deal with them.
Martin Furber 9:45
Yes.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:46
What tends to happen when you have an anxiety disorder is you worry, worry, worry, but you don't do anything to change.
Martin Furber 9:53
You start procrastinating.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:55
Yeah, but I actually don't think it'd be even as procrastination it's like pre-that it's just you sit there, not even thinking 'I don't want to leave the house because the sky may fall'. It's just you're sitting there locked in anxiety, generalised anxiety you've got nowhere, you've got nothing to focus on. Because it's just become so global. And so when you're working with a therapist with CBT therapist, or any other, you know, psychoanalytic, or hypnotherapist, you can, through conversation, whether with a conscious or unconscious mind, you can find those little pieces and allow them to focus on those things, which will then be able to generalise good things instead of generalise bad things.
Martin Furber 10:47
Okay, well, in the hypnosis style that you use then, for example, would you give somebody an anchor, something they could do is when they get into that space.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:56
Always, always, that's why when I mean, every session is different, because everyone's coming for a different reason. Everyone has a different backstory. But my usual use is of a progressive relaxation technique, partly because we're on Zoom, partly because I think there's no reason to shock somebody into something, we have an hour and a half, which is fine. So they have a progressive relaxation, and then they, as we begin, they go to a place where they feel completely safe and comfortable. Find a specific memory, when they felt completely in control. Happy, confident life was wonderful. And if you're two when you're remembering it's I don't care. Just find a real memory, so you can play that memory to yourself a few times and then anchor that feeling to an action. Usually it's just a pinch fingers together. Sometimes it's something else. So that your brain will associate if I do this, or this is the way I feel when I do that. Yeah. sounds goofy, not to you, it may to the public. And so when they do that, they just get that instant little, Ahhh.
Martin Furber 12:15
This is it though Denise, it might sound goofy to somebody who's not had any experience with hypnosis. Because that is the thing though, it may sound goofy, you may think it sounds goofy, but no, it doesn't. And this is the thing. People want to know something about hypnotherapy how hypnotherapy works, if they're curious. You know, we say it's not woo-woo it's not, you know, snap your fingers and all that kind of thing. But there are various universal techniques that apply, you know, by hypnotists. I do exactly the same thing with setting anchors. I do concentrate a lot more on positive future rehearsal though for things with people as well, if somebody is really anxious, especially about like a driving test.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:59
Yes, I do that if it's for a specific event or specific type of event, famously, the guy driving over a bridge. And he used an anchor, you know.
Martin Furber 13:10
He's your poster-boy now isn't he!
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:11
He is, he's wonderful, because then you got other things that works too. But to use that anchor as he was driving, so that he would feel relaxed, because there was a huge amount of the anticipatory anxiety. And then even there was a lot of bridges where we live, they are everywhere. It's a lot of regular roads. And he didn't have any trouble at all driving, it was only bridges and high places.
Martin Furber 13:40
I think, though it's getting into your clients space. So that, because if people haven't been hypnotised if they haven't experienced that intense relaxation, they won't quite understand what it is we're doing. And for me, it's like getting into your clients space and just getting them so relaxed. They can really visualise what it is you're getting over to them.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:02
For the most part, when I'm starting work with a client, we do address the main issue they have, because that's why they're paying me they want to get rid of that particular issue. But for some clients, I have to go back a stage and just teach them what it feels to be relaxed. Yes. So it we have a general relaxation, and they go home with a relaxation tape so that we can start the work once they know how that feels.
Martin Furber 14:31
Well, when that's similar to me.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:33
And trust it.
Martin Furber 14:34
Well, with every client I see after I've given them an initial consultation, which I don't charge for. I give them the recording to listen to every night for a week, because it gets them used to my voice, and it gets used to relaxing, because otherwise, the first time you're going to do a full proper session with them. They've got that many questions in their head beforehand. You know, what will it sound like? How will I feel They're already halfway there by listening to the recordings, then they know what it's like to relax. And then obviously, it's going to be a far more pleasurable experience for them. I think, what a lot of people, perhaps when you manage people's expectations, some people think they're just going to be like zonked out, not remember a thing this other than the other. For me, I always say to them, I want it to be, you know, the highlight of your week it's a wonderful, relaxing experience.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:25
Right? And that's, that's part of it. It's the anxiety about hypnosis now, we'll deal with that, as well. So yeah, so that's, that's really why the first session tends to be relaxation, depending on why they've come. And some clients have been hypnotised by other people before they've had a fear of flying. That was, you know, 20-30 years ago, that worked. Maybe this will work for this too, and I'm gonna go find a hypnotist. But they still need to get used to me, my voice. There's the usual rapport that you have to build up. And if somebody is truly very anxious, can take a while.
Martin Furber 16:05
Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing. That's what I say it's always better that they listen to a recording for a week, first. It brings the anxiety down, without a doubt, they'll be sleeping better.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:15
Although we should we should say, again, always they should talk to their doctor if their anxiety is of that ilk.
Martin Furber 16:23
Oh, absolutely.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:24
If they're thinking they need a professional of any kind, start with your doctor. There are other conditions that would give you an organic reason to be...people with thyroid disorder, for example. Yeah, they they may feel anxious and fix the thyroid, a lot of that will go away.
Martin Furber 16:42
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how it is in the US, Denise, but over here. Generally, with a lot of people, the hypnotherapist is their last port of call view, they've usually been to the doctor, and either with or without a diagnosis. They've tried other therapies first because hypnotherapy has that reputation of being a bit out there. A little bit different and perhaps unconventional from other methods.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:07
But, you see, my the reason that I'm on YouTube and podcasts and talking to people, I think probably for you too, because I want doctors to realise that we should possibly be the first port of call
Martin Furber 17:19
Yes.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:19
Or you know if the person's got a thyroid problem, okay, let's work with medication, let that work-up, because that can take quite a few weeks, but also include hypnosis. So they need to have a stash of hypnotists they can refer to, and now that everybody's on Zoom, there's so many more hypnotists, but that people have access to
Martin Furber 17:43
Yeah, yeah,
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:44
But people don't realise it.
Martin Furber 17:45
Yeah, and ones who specialise in different things or just basically a wider choice of people. I mean, something with I think any kind of therapist is, if you're shopping around for one, you read the bio, you look at the picture and let's face it as human beings we judge on appearances. Absolutely, we do.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:01
And we tend to like to like, I get a lot of older people because clearly I am not a spring chicken, and, but I quite often get, 'I was looking for a guy but I can't find one, and since you were a doctor this is you know, it won't be embarrassing to talk about the thing with you'.Which is nice for me but it's rather sad that there are. Are there more women than men, hypnotists, hypnotherapists?
Martin Furber 18:34
Yeah, therapists Yeah, there are I mean, we know from various groups we've been in for every 20 Women there's one man.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:43
Yeah, but that may be a phenomena of women liking to talk to other women.
Martin Furber 18:52
Sexist!!
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:52
But it's true when I mean, women like to talk. Since the people you're talking.. to people.
Martin Furber 18:59
Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I can't comment on that. If I were to say women like to talk...that would be horrendous. No, no.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:11
An unconscious bias.
Martin Furber 19:13
So we were talking about positive future visualisations I think we get that the best one so clients been relaxed over a period of days with a nighttime recording, but also it's being able to conjure up in their imagination, help them to conjure up in their imagination, the most vivid picture. Now, this may be useful to people who are watching this who think, but I cannot visualise something. You know, when you close your eyes, you don't see an actual picture in front of your eyes. Some people don't. And I always find it a little bit difficult to explain to people exactly what visualisation is. So, if somebody says I can't imagine that I cannot see it. I can't picture it. I'll tend to ask them. What colour is their front door? Where's the letterbox? Where's the handle? Where are the numbers on it? Or are they on the wall next to it? And in their way, they must be visualising in that to be able to tell me.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:10
That's, that's, it's like we ask, are you creative? No, no, no, no. Well, of course we all are in some ways.
Martin Furber 20:18
Oh, yeah. Even if you just enjoy plating your meal up nicely.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:22
Yeah, definitely
Martin Furber 20:23
That's being creative.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:24
Hanging your diplomas behind your head.
Martin Furber 20:28
Now, now!
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:32
I've never managed to get mine, A, mine tend not to stay on the wall.
Martin Furber 20:36
Yours would be stuck on the window if you had them behind you.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:36
But that's true. I mean, everybody's, everybody has the ability to imagine but what you imagine, imagining is, maybe different. Went a bit sideways there. Where did we end up.
Martin Furber 20:57
Well, we were talking about positive future visualisation, mental rehearsal.
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:00
Visualising the fact that people can visualise. And that's just because that's the word we use whatever, whatever faculty, your imagination chooses, you want to hear music, see colours dancing in front of you, whatever, or sensation. You that's, of course, the way John colarusso, when when he was explaining to me how he works with his stroke survivors. He has them, imagine the feel under the paralysed arm or leg or whatever. Imagine you can feel the sheet under you. And so, imagination is an incredibly powerful, and the brain can't tell if it's real or not.
Martin Furber 21:47
Yeah, exactly and you just hit on something that I remember talking with somebody about years ago now when I was in training, and that was phantom pains after limb removals. And again, we were talking about the brain not knowing the difference between imagination and reality. And somebody who had had their hand amputated, was still getting pains in the fingers, obviously...
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:12
Because the brain was frantically looking for the hand.
Martin Furber 22:14
But yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, a prime example of how hypnotherapy could help surely.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:20
Oh, it is, it's very well known for use for that, to ignore those sensations.
Martin Furber 22:29
This is very different thing from somebody who's, unfortunately had to have an amputation. But again, I use it in weight loss for getting people to reinterpret what they call hunger pangs, because of course, it's not real hunger. You know, if you were really hungry, you'd know it. But of course, when people get that urge to eat, and they think they're getting a sensation in the stomach, yeah. Okay.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:54
So, if you're a hypnotist yourself, you can write back and tell us the ways that you deal with it, and if you're, if you're the general public, and you're interested, you can look in your phone book and see how many hypnotists you can find. It will be interesting, just do a quick roundup of hypnotists, or contact one of us and we can help you find somebody local or we can help you over Zoom.
Martin Furber 23:18
Absolutely, Denise, because it is trying to get that understanding through to people though, because people a lot of people think, okay, yeah, they don't think they're swinging watches anymore, and things like that, but they think they're just going to be zonked out and whatever it is, won't be there anymore. You know, I don't think there's a great understanding out there of exactly what happens under hypnosis, as I say, like positive future mental rehearsal, or setting an anchor that they can trigger to bring back good feelings and...
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:48
Right, but there's also, obviously, every hypnotist works differently. It's also we think we're explaining what's happening, but there's still research going on, actually, now that we can look inside the brain. Yeah, agree. Now we actually know. It's not just that, your brain's actually quite busy.
Martin Furber 24:06
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing though, I'm waiting for my EEG to arrive, but anyway, again, I found the research piece, and I've lost it now! About how much more active, ie, electrical impulses are going on in the brain at rest, than when you're doing a maths exam.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:24
Really?
Martin Furber 24:25
Really, yeah. yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:27
Because it's so focused, presumably on the math, interesting?
Martin Furber 24:30
Yeah, let me In fact, let me find it...
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:33
Put it in the show notes.
Martin Furber 24:34
I'll put it in the show notes. I think it was Marcus Rachel, I'm not sure. But I got the research for it. Yeah, EEG's, our viewers and listeners are gonna have to watch out for that one. In the next few weeks. We will have an EEG machine live on air.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:50
We'll be looking at your brain closely. Yeah. So one, we probably should stop this has been we've been rambling on again as usual.
Martin Furber 24:57
Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:58
And our next guest...
Martin Furber 25:01
Denise Oatley-Hall
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:01
Yes, she will be far more focused than us. And we'll be speaking about the way, honestly about the way a lot of people deal with stress or think they are, because she's going to talk about her work with helping people quit smoking.
Martin Furber 25:16
And she's had a lot of people she's helped, hasn't she?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:19
Yes, she has. She's she's really started focusing on that aspect.
Martin Furber 25:23
Yeah, awesome. So that's the next episode, double Denise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:27
Double Denise with two barrel names. Yeah.
Martin Furber 25:31
Okay, brilliant. Look forward to it. See on the next one.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:34
All right. Bye, bye.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:43
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember, this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 26:00
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
