Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who'd like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis, and the benefits it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor turned consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:36
Okay, so let's get on with the show. And joining Denise and I this week we have all the way from the UK, Julie New, hi Julie.
Julie New 0:46
Hi.
Julie New 0:47
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:52
We're delighted.
Martin Furber 0:54
We are indeed Okay, well, as you know, Denise is in America, in the US
Julie New 0:58
Across the pond.
Martin Furber 1:02
Well, thanks for joining us on the show. And you're the first non-hypnotist we've got on the show actually.
Julie New 1:07
Really?
Martin Furber 1:08
Yes.
Julie New 1:08
Oh, my goodness, oh I feel really honoured.
Martin Furber 1:12
So are we, we're honoured to have you on. Because, okay, we've corresponded on LinkedIn, over the months, etc. And I've sort of followed some of your work and looked at some of your work and been quite intrigued by it. So I thought it would be nice to get you on the show and talk about it.
Julie New 1:29
Thank you.
Martin Furber 1:30
No, no problem. So you describe yourself as a personal recovery coach?
Julie New 1:35
Yeah, yeah.
Martin Furber 1:36
All right. Tell us more. Tell us more tell our viewers and listeners more.
Julie New 1:40
So oh, gosh, well, just before we were coming, coming on air, if you like, and we were just talking, weren't we, about, you know, being people referring to different modalities. Because so, so when life changes forever. So change, yeah, change, change can take all sorts of different forms can't it? And some change can be really, really positive can't it? You know, really good.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:15
Still, but still disruptive.
Julie New 2:18
Yeah, but I kind of think, I mean, it's, you can change the channel on the radio, and you put your favourite channel, you put your favourite radio channel on, and it's been that's, you know, that's, that's quite nice, isn't it? But then with life change, I think you can have, you know, so. So I particularly specialise in people who have been through difficult and sometimes traumatic life change. So that could be a divorce, it could be a separation, a bereavement, an illness, it could be anything that's caused somebody to, you know, it's become, you know, difficult and challenging, life. And, really, what I do is I help people on that journey, navigate the journey, so I help. So for example, I've got a lady who, whose husband died very suddenly, in December, she was recommended to get in touch with me by somebody that knows me very well. And they've been married for 36 years. And then within nine hours, he's gone. But not only that, you know, I mean, she but she was literally going out that day to get the Christmas turkey. And they got Christmas presents under the tree. He and you know, all of a sudden, he's not there anymore. How do you navigate that journey? You know, she'd never, she'd never had any, you know, you know, they, she used to sit on his knee, and you know, and they, they work together, they live together, they breathe the same air together. So personal recovery work is is about helping somebody navigate that journey. So I see somebody once a month, and usually for 90 minutes to two hours. And they have access to me throughout the month as well. So if it's, so for example, that particular lady very rarely gets in touch with me during the month, but there was a particular occasion last month, they were scattering his ashes. And she just had a bit of a wobble and just needed to just check in with me. Just to say actually, you know, I'm really finding this really difficult.
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:44
And of course, it's also nice, it's nice to have somebody who is invested in that relationship to speak to too, because she has children. You know, they're dealing with their grief.
Julie New 4:53
Absolutely yeah, yeah, I mean, the children are late teens, early twenties. And, you know, they were all there, you're right, you know, and, but it's just, you know, helping her to, I could just say to her, you know, you've got this, you know, you, you're, you've made this decision to do this. And, you know, it's the right decision. And that's all she needed to hear really was that. And then so and I'll see her, you know, I'm seeing her ongoing for the time being. If I, if I feel it, and sometimes with very sudden loss, and you'll know this yourselves, there may come a point where she needs some deeper work. So I'm on that, and at that point, I would probably continue to work with her, but I would bring somebody else in. So it might be a therapeutic kind of something therapeutic, or it could be somebody people like yourselves, you know, who might be I'll help be able to help to relax a bit more, you know, to help her, you know, just in some other way. So, I'm there on somebody's journey. And I always bring in, you know, other modalities, if you know, if needs be. But yeah, it's something that I've developed over 17 years. And it's now that I really feel as though it's something that needs to be known about. And, you know, I'd like to bring it into the wider, to a wider audience, because, you know, I just kind of feel that counselling and therapeutic work is more accepted now. Coaching, which is more positive, more solution focused is less accepted on, I think, less known about and understood.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:50
But on the other hand, it's nice that Britons are no longer being told routinely stiff upper lip, you do occasionally have a few other options offered to you, when you feel that you need help.
Julie New 7:01
Yeajh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Martin Furber 7:03
You've just sort of pre-empted my next question there, Julie, because you were saying about the solution focused approach. And I was about to ask you, when you were talking about this particular client, deciding what she needs to do in the future, I was going to ask is there a difference in coaching her as in teasing her solutions out of herself. That's a sort of very similar way to how I do solution focused hypnotherapy. Everything's about the client finding their own solutions to their own problems, it's a matter of getting them in there in the first place. So they can sort of clear their mind and identify from their own resources, their solution. So it is their plan as it were.
Julie New 7:44
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think for me, I guess I'm not, I just, I'm helping them navigate. Day to day, sometimes, you know, what they're going to put on to wear, even sometimes, you know. I had another client who, because it's only recently actually that I started working with people more, as something's happening. I used to take over the therapeutic journey. And, I'm realising now that actually there's a real it's very helpful to have somebody that's just helping you day to day and actually, I'm taking you to a point where...
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:31
Right, how much of that do you think is needed, because we no longer live so close to extended family members? If you think back 50 years ago.
Julie New 8:43
Yeah, no, I know, I think that there is an element of that. Definitely. Because, I mean, I'll give you an example of my family dynamics now. I have two girls, and one of them lives 10 minutes away. And she's getting married actually, next week. And her the family that she's marrying into also live, they actually live closer to me than she does. So we're all, and we've got a grandbaby now. And he I was listening to Gabor Mate, it was a podcast with Ferne Cotton recently. And he says that a child can never have too much love. And it made me think about my, my grandson who has so much love and so much, you know, we all have him for a day a week each and, you know, you're absolutely right. You know, he has that, and my girls have access to me all the time. And yeah, there is that element of that but also I think sometimes you need somebody separate to your family. Because as you said, you know you alluded to earlier, you know, sometimes you can all be part of, you know, the, you can all have that, life change that massive life change.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:10
Yes, you may feel, the daughter may feel that she can't express her own grief because she has to be careful of her mother. There's so many.
Julie New 10:19
Yeah, yeah. And and there's the family
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:21
Of course we're talking about grief when we're speaking about death, which obviously it's very obvious to people that they're going to be sad then. But there are so many other things going through a divorce, as you alluded to, but finding that you have a cancer journey to walk, that there are so many reasons anything which is going to change your life, there will be an element of grief. Yeah, there's I mean, there's some bittersweet stuff that most of us go through. You know. The children are leaving for kindergarten. You don't need too much therapy for that. But yeah, for a moment there, it doesn't feel very comfortable.
Julie New 10:54
Yeah, but it's all you know, but it's all so, it's just yeah, yeah. I mean, I it was weird. It was weird, really, that I called my business Changes Forever. Because, and this was going back 2006, when I started my business, I called it Changes Forever. And I had no idea that I was going to be, you know, working in this way. I had no idea that that was what was an you know, it was just somebody in the car in the car park of a networking meeting. I was like, I was so excited. I'd got my business cards that I've had handmade, you know, and this lady came over to me, and she must have heard me say something that made her come over and she she was going through, she'd been through a very abusive relationship, and she was going through a very nasty divorce. And she said, I just think you can help me. And that was how that was how my work started, you know, in that in this field, really.
Martin Furber 11:54
All right. Well, I'll tell you what jumped out at me with your work, Julie. Because as hypnotists we deal in metaphor, okay, as hypnotherapists, we deal in metaphor all the time. And of course, your book, 'Keep watering you' and your whole way of presenting things to people is about watering yourself from growing... well obviously you will phrase it better than I will, your own garden of yourself as it were, you know, quite frequently in hypnotherapy, we talk about things like the garden of the mind and all that kind of thing. So I totally get, you know, when you feel a connection to somebody's work when you say it, when I saw your work, I just totally got it. And it sort of, you know, to me, it's elements of hypnotherapy. You know, and that's, this is a thing again, in the UK, getting it across to people that self-care is not self indulgence. You know, self-care is essential.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:55
Can I plug my book, plug my book? Self-care is not a mani-pedi.
Julie New 13:01
Say that again, Denise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:04
Self-care was not a mani-pedi. It's not getting your hair done. It's not. I mean, yes, those are nice things. So it's a nice additional things but real self-care is not that.
Martin Furber 13:15
Denise wrote a book with eight other doctors last year.
Julie New 13:20
Oh my goodness. I'm gonna have to go get a copy. Because I always used to say my book's, a little book. And so I had somebody say to me once, and don't ever belittle your work. I thought ooh.
Martin Furber 13:38
Absolutely.
Julie New 13:43
I'd really like to get hold of a copy of that. That's yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, it's so important. In fact,
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:50
Available on Amazon.
Julie New 13:53
Very good.
Martin Furber 13:53
All proceeds going to Medicine sans Frontier.
Julie New 13:58
Amazing, amazing work.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:02
Okay, that wasn't supposed to be an ad for us. When, when did you when did you start writing? Did your first book precede your coaching work? Or did the book grow out of coaching?
Julie New 14:15
It grew out of the coaching. I always knew from when I was about 11, that one day, I would write a book. And I remember sharing that with Mrs. Lowe, who was my teacher, my English teacher, and she laughed at me.
Julie New 14:29
Sounds so English!
Julie New 14:29
Yeah. So she laughed at me. And so I kind of put that on, hold on. I was like, oh, you know, you know, I'm never gonna gonna do that. But I always had it in my mind that one day I would do that. And because I think we all we all have, you know, creative people. We all have a specific kind of creativity, and mine happens to be writing.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:54
Everybody has some creativity.
Julie New 14:55
Yeah, yeah, but some people think they're not creative, but actually you're right. You know, they, they will, there will be something that they, they do. And, it got to, so I started, I started my work in as I say 2006. And then 2008 I kind of felt that it was time for me to brand my ideas. And the graphic designer, who was called Susan, she kind of came came back with seven different designs, and one of them was this bright orange sunflower. And I just thought, Oh, my goodness, that's, I love that. I love that. And she said, Well, that's that's you. And I knew that you would pick that one. And I said, What do you mean, that's me? She said, Well, she said, that's you. You're a sunflower. And I said, What do you mean? I'm the sunflower? What are you talking about? And she said, You're bright, you're sunny you have this ability to turn towards the sun in most weathers. And you stand tall in most weathers actually, if you weren't in my garden right now, actually, there's I've got so many some plants growing, it's unbelievable. And so I then became known as 'Sunflower Julie New', or Sunflower Julie', that's what I became known as. And but then it set me thinking and I thought, well, if she thinks I'm a sunflower, what are you Martin? What are you Denise? You know, are you a flower? Are you a herb, a shrub, a tree or something else in the garden? What are you and why? And it just, I started using it in my work. And I started asking people that question, so maybe we should ask people that question right now. You know, those that listening. What are you and why? And anyway, and then I started to, it started to grow, the kind of thoughts and I started to think, well, actually, life is a bit like a garden. You know, if you don't look after a garden, what happens to it? Who are the flowers in your garden? You know, the people? You were talking earlier, Denise about your three sisters, you know, you're all different, you know, but you're a guard little garden aren't you, of people, and so yeah, so this started to grow. And eventually, I thought, well, actually, I need to because I started using it my work and people really liked it. And so that was my first book. So it's a good little gift book.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:57
You're pushing the sunflowers there. There's definitely a lot sunflowers going on.
Julie New 17:40
Yeah, I've got I've got two illustrators. So this is the purpose of that book, is to make people think more deeply about their lives. And that was that
Martin Furber 17:57
They are happy flowers though, sunflowers, aren't they? You know, they look happy.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:02
They brighten a room. Yes. You know.
Julie New 18:03
That's kind of what, what she was, what she said, really. And, you know, that was her that said that? I didn't say that. And yeah, I've got amazing, I've got so many people. I mean, I've asked that question to a group of 30 people once, in 2009, actually. I'd started to do, kind of what, what not just workshops, but events, and they were personal growth and development events that were really special. You know, if you've got a group of people like us in the room, you know, sensitive, kind, caring, compassionate people with a deep empathy for others, who need, who give so much to others, but need always need reminding to take good care of themselves. To get a group of people. Shall I tell you really funny story? It's hilarious. So I asked that question. I posed it as an icebreaker for this particular day. And I had this guy put his hand up and he said, he said, Mike, he said, I know what I am. And I said, What are you? And he said, I'm a cauliflower. I said, Pardon? What did you say? He said, We all like look around us in and he said, Yeah, he said, me and my wife my wife's a psychotherapist and we've just come back from India. And I got your your memo about you know what was in the garden, so we discussed it at length, and we talked about it and he said, The reason I'm a cauliflower is because I have many florets to my personality. And I need, because cauliflower apparently they need nurturing, and taking really good care of. So yeah, so that's anyway so that's essentially how that came about. And then the year it came out... Do you want me to tell you about that?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:59
Yeah, please do if we decide we don't like it, we'll take it out.
Julie New 20:02
Okay cool. I had, I mean what possessed me? I mean for goodnessc sake, like what possessed me? I ordered 1500 copies, I was so excited really, that was the thing. I had 1500 copies of this book. So they were like a pile of books that arrived and what have you. And I was so excited, and I was also developing the work I was doing. And it was I sort of been doing lots of other stuff. And but my husband, Rob was very, very poorly. And it got to the July so the book came out, he could he couldn't attend my book launch, which was, we were raising money actually for, it's called Growing people. It was a place called the Natural Centre for Healthy Living. It's just been taken over actually, it's a really beautiful place. Lots and lots of therapeutic work goes on there. And, yeah, we had a raffle and all that anyway, he couldn't make it because he was so poorly and had been poorly for about 3 years at that point, three and a half years. And in the July, I had to make a huge decision because he went into hospital, which turned out to be for the last time. At the time, I still had hope, I still hoped that he would, he would recover. But that wasn't to be. But he was in for five months. And so I shut my company, I shut the business, I made it dormant. And I also turned my back on the books. But what actually happened was I started to ask, how many books do I need to take out with me today? So I'd go I'd be going to the hospital? And I'd be thinking, yeah, how many books do I need? And I'd always get a number in my head. And invariably, I would meet that number of people that needed to hear its messages and needed to say yes, so. So anyway, Rob passed away in my arms, five months later. And I'd been with him every day. My dad used to go home in the afternoons and I'd have a, you know, I'd have a bit of rest. And what possessed us, we'd got a new dog, who was a mad cockapoo called Ben, who used to get me out of the front door. And I eventually had to leave my work behind for a while because you literally can't give, can you, what you don't have. And yeah, I knew I had to take time out.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:59
Yeah, yeah. self-care!
Julie New 23:01
You know, not quite, you know, quite a quite deep level there. And as 2017., well, 2016, I made a decision that I I felt ready. I started to get calls for me to coach again, and what have you. And the funny bit here is, I then woke up one morning and I thought, Oh, I can't keep giving away copies of my book, because that's not really good. good business sense is it? And by that point, I had gifted about 800 copies of that book. But I kind of, even now, I kind of think to myself, actually, you know, that man on the on the train that was homeless, and was, you know, coming towards this and talking about his story. I knew that this was going to help him in some way. He might have who knows he might have sold it, he might have got some money for it. He might have...
Martin Furber 24:00
Bought some lunch, he might have needed it, you don't know, but it would have helped him.
Julie New 24:01
But you know, and but there was a couple on at the Paralympic Games, who, they were on the train with with me and yeah, they, I know, through somebody, her best friend actually saw me speak. And she came over to me and she didn't know this at the time, but there was a very tenuous link between her friend and her, and she became a client of mine and then her friend realised that actually I was that person on the train had given her a copy of the book. So it's so huge. And I think in life you don't you never know do you? Who you make a difference to and who, you know, but it's fundamentally, you know, for me, it's about recognising you know, what people need, and ensuring that they get that. And anyway, I couldn't keep giving copies of my book. And my second book, I made a pledge that I was not going to give any copies. Because that was, so I had a postcard made, which I think, Martin, you might have seen a post. So this is page 91 of my book, and it's most important message, which is to keep watering you. So yeah, so I've given 2000 of those away, so far.
Julie New 24:03
A little less overhead!
Julie New 25:32
Yeah, but you know, still giving a message. And still I mean, I can write, I can write a nice message on it that I get, you know, I get, like, I feel my message that somebody might need to hear. So yeah, so that was that. And then my second book, I started to kind of get the idea for it. Because not only have we lost Rob, my girls Step Dad, they had also lost their Dad, three years before that, almost four years before that, very suddenly. And so we, as a family had had a huge amount of grief. We've been on what I call, in fact, it only changed its name, so this particular book is specifically for people who have lost a loved one. And as Denise, you said earlier, you know, there are, you know, lots of situations in life where we have lost and we have change, and it causes grief. But this is specifically for people who've lost a loved one. So I'm really proud of this one. I'm proud of my first one. But I'm really proud of this one because I kind of feel it's it's such a short little, little read, and people don't need a great long I remember buying a book. When I was going, when I when I lost Rob.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:57
You don't want a treatise on it. You want help when you read it.
Julie New 27:01
Yeah, you don't want War & Peace do you? And you can't concentrate, you know, I was in deep, deep grief when Rob died, and yeah, it's...Yeah, it's and actually the one of my client, the client was not the client that I just mentioned earlier, but another client that I had, she she said to me, quite recently, actually, she's she turned around to me, and she said, Julie, never underestimate the power of your lived experience. Because with the work I do, I do occasionally, I'll bring in a story or bring in, you know, something, and they, you know, they they kind of, yeah, it kind of helps.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:50
You get it! Being heard and being understood is really important in that work, I think. Yeah, really, for any for any interaction with a human. It's nice that they feel understood, but it's really important that they don't feel they have to explain, 'Why do you feel sad?' This happened last week. You know, you should be able to, to assume that you've got common ground.
Julie New 28:16
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that isn't why I went into the work I do at all. Not at all, no because a lot of people think that our story and our journey, was the reason for me doing the work I do, but as that's not the case at all.
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:34
What drew you to it, though? Is it because of your nursing experience? No, I was talking to a person on one day!
Julie New 28:47
No, what happened was, I'd had coaching and it was my coach that said to me one day, Julie, have you ever thought about becoming a coach, and I genuinely, I got to the top I got to the top grade in nursing. I was on track to, you know, carry on, and Iwould still be a nurse today, had she not asked me that question. But it made me think, and it made me think, actually, because I think that's what coaching does, and you know, same with the work that you do as well. You know, it's if you ask a good question that makes people think more deeply about their life, you know, their lives, then you're, and that's what she did with me. She just asked me that question. And I thought, well, actually, I've always done that. Throughout the whole of my life. I've always asked good questions, and I I've always cared about people and their journey. And, I you know, with my with my teams at work, I always, you know, it was always really important to me that people were happy and they were, you know, living their best lives. And so that, it just never left me, that question. And in the end, yeah, I put my two girls into one room rented two rooms out at my house, because I was on my own with them. And I did my training. And that's how that's how it started. It wasn't it wasn't because I'd had I mean, I had been through a divorce, but it wasn't that wasn't the reason I became a coach.
Martin Furber 30:22
Do you think, I mean, obviously, you've got a medical background as a nurse, Denise's got a medical background. Do you think I mean, obviously, Denise is in the US, you're in the UK. But do you think in our health service over here in the NHS, that there is so much more room for things like coaching like hypnotherapy, and what have you, to be there as part of the complement of things available to people?
Julie New 30:48
It's a really good question, Martin, isn't it? Wouldn't that be amazing?
Martin Furber 30:53
Well, yeah, I'm talking about as a preventative, because they talk so much about preventative medicine?
Julie New 30:59
Well, it's, you know, it's holistic, isn't it? It needs, I think I think you're right, I think it needs to be more holistic. And I as a nurse, I always used to, you know, go the extra mile with my patients, you know, I would sit with them, I would hold their hand. You know, there was something that happened with Rob, that I could have, well I did really get very, very upset about because actually, I think even now, that the attention has been taken away from the patient because of paperwork. And, you know, and
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:38
Also the bells and whistles...
Julie New 31:39
You know, even even taking somebody's blood pressure or taking somebody's temperature, you're not touching the patients anymore. You're attaching them to things you're, you know, there isn't that, there isn't as much, they don't, people don't have time for somebody, and they certainly from a mind-health perspective. I just think you're no, you're you're you're spot on.
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:04
We were talking just before, a friend of mine has just received a diagnosis of cancer, which will require surgery and she's going to be in the hospital for six hours for a surgical procedure, which would normally be considered major surgery.
Julie New 32:18
Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:18
And yet she's expected to, to prep herself. She's been told, you know, how many times to wash with this sort of soap.
Julie New 32:25
Yeah,
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:25
Show up for the surgery. And then after you've come around from the anaesthesia, if there weren't any complications, we'll send you home. And it just, it feels, it feels just so wrong.
Julie New 32:34
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, she's gonna be left with, with those, you know, with her own thoughts. Isn't she?
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:42
Every twinge you have post surgery, you want to be reassured that it's okay. That's the way, you know, and her husband is going through his own grief journey, because he just heard this diagnosis on his wife. There's just so much that, you know, they're going back to their house, and I'm very supportive community and I'm a phone call away. And you know, but still, I feel like we're missing. You know, we talk constantly, certainly, when I was in it, still functioning as a clinician, they've talked about high touch high tech, but the high touch is gone. It just like a way for the window. And yeah,
Julie New 33:22
Yeah, and you know, and it's...
Denise Billen-Mejia 33:24
But this will mean we need to bring in more ancillary professionals. Yeah. hypnotists and therapists and of various ilks or coaches, to do that part.
Julie New 33:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think that, for example, businesses, I think, are taking on board. Particularly from a counselling perspective, the therapeutic kind of, I think there is those, that's improved. But I think you're right, within our NHS within our own. Yeah, it needs to be, I think a whole holistic approach, has to be the way forward, surely has to be Yeah, and you know, and I, I always refer always, you know, if I feel somebody needs something else as well, or instead of or as part of the mix, I always bring other things that other people in
Martin Furber 34:32
Excellent. well Julie, I can't let this episode come to a close without noticing something on your website today as well, for the first time. You're a mental health first aider.
Julie New 34:44
I mean, every year I do I do some form of training. I do something just to just to add to my, you know, so yeah, yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 34:53
Thank you so much for joining us. It was lovely to meet you.
Julie New 34:57
Lovely to meet you too.
Martin Furber 34:59
Thanks for coming on Julie, I'm gonna put all the information, contact details in the show notes,your website where people can find you, can find out more about your books and everything else. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure.
Julie New 35:11
Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it
Denise Billen-Mejia 35:22
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 35:38
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
