Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis, and the benefits that offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor turned consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:36
Let's get this show on the road then Denise
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:40
And nobody to interrupt.... nobody to introduce, Introduce this week.
Martin Furber 0:46
It was, a bumper episode last week.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:48
Yes, it was. So you were going to teach me a new phrase, I think I know what it's going to be about. So tell me about this.
Martin Furber 0:57
You know what it's about. It's just a bit of a buzzy phrase over here at the moment. I've written about it in one of my newspaper columns, actually, you know, you write down bits of advice, or information for people about things. I was writing about something that's called urge surfing.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:20
Which I assume does not mean the urge to surf. Which I would never have but many do. But what is this? Exactly? This actually is not a rhetorical question. I stopped him before he told me about it so that we'll be able to talk about it on the show.
Martin Furber 1:38
Well. Okay, right. Well, okay. It's it's a technique when we all, based on the fact that most urges will pass, when we get the urge for something. Apparently, it's quite successful in terms of addiction and that kind of thing. But it can work for any urge. So I'm thinking, well, we do a lot of stuff in hypnosis about urges, don't we? About helping people perhaps not to eat, or not to eat a certain type of thing. But this technique, urge surfing, it sounds to me like it's based in mindfulness. But I suspect its origins will be in CBT.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:18
All right, so explain what sort of an urge, like I have an urge to go downstairs and get the cake out the fridge and eat half of it. What what is that? Is it that kind of an urge we are talking about?
Martin Furber 2:28
So, okay, so if you've got that urge to do that now, okay, the chances are that urge would go away in about half an hour, whether you ate the cake or you didn't, most urges sort of go away that they pass. So the idea of this is when when you get the urge for something, you acknowledge the urge, okay? Don't try and quash it because it will just fight back more. Okay, you acknowledge it, and you try and sort of mentally view it from a distance as it were, without trying to quash it and just notice things about that urge. And then hopefully, it starts to sort of die down, and then it passes. So you surf the wave of the urge. riding the wave,
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:10
So, you enjoy all the parts of the urge, except the actual consuming of the cake. All right. So how would you use that? Or what technique that you use already in hypnosis, would you consider that?
Martin Furber 3:27
Well, it all depends on the type of hypnosis doesn't it? So for example, I'm thinking when, depending on what techniques were using with people, when we're using more, perhaps sort of like a direct suggestion to people, you know, in future whenever you see a tree, you will be reminded of whatever in terms of urge surfing, I'm thinking, well, that's a technique that one would explain to a client outside of trance, something you may talk to them about in the pre-talk in the early part of a session, and then perhaps reinforce that during the trance, reinforce that technique and the use of that technique to them. What do you think?
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:16
Oh, I don't know, I'm still trying to get my head around it. Is this really different? If I had, you know, sort of a trigger and response thing you give people anchors to go to when they have a particular trigger hits them? So I don't, somehow to me, I think, if I were to spend that half hour contemplating the cake, I have a feeling I'd be downstairs. Yeah, maybe midway through
Martin Furber 4:38
Based on the thing of anything you concentrate on you amplify?
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:41
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, who've I got I can experiment on now. Yeah, so it's interesting, isn't it that those buzzwords come up and there's so much that's reinvented all the time, you know, people that call, well I want to call anybody out, especially if they're watching this channel. But you know that hypnosis keeps being reinvented and called something else, sometimes just to get around legal aspects or you know, there are some states where being hypnotist isn't allowed, or at least is frowned on. So somebody will say, this is one of my coaching techniques. Would you like to relax now? Yeah. Yeah, so there's a lot of that and there's a, I'm still seeing, you know who I'm talking about, but I won't name her. There was a hypnotist, who fairly recently, I came across her on YouTube, she was talking to somebody else. And she said, would you like to be hypnotised? And she did (click fingers) that immediately cut to the person closing his eyes, giving the impression that that's what hypnosis is. That it is you taking over for the person. And it is just so infuriating, that we're still doing that.
Martin Furber 5:58
It's so NOT about taking over!
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:00
It undermines the real utility of hypnosis.
Martin Furber 6:06
I'm just tempted to do that to you Denise!
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:12
Now you can, you can have that be a trigger. You absolutely can. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that comes before that.
Martin Furber 6:20
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's like when you see these things on YouTube, where people claim to walk into a bar and instantly hypnotise the bar monitor into giving them free drinks all night and that kind of thing. It doesn't happen!
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:34
Nevermind the fact that you ought to have a little bit of knowledge about the person too, because there are some people who should not be hypnotised, or certainly should only be hypnotised under very controlled set of circumstances. And you don't know who Joe Bloggs is when you really walk in. You have no idea what that person's background is.
Martin Furber 6:53
Or what you could trigger. You don't know what kind of thing you could trigger. So just getting back to urge surfing. Sounds buzzy, doesn't it?
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:03
Yes, very buzzy,
Martin Furber 7:04
I like the sound of it. But then it brought me on to thinking about something else, which was something I talk about when dealing with young people and self harm. Okay. And that's about riding out the urges. You know, when young people get the urge, or anybody gets the urge to self harm, we're talking about deliberate self harm now. You know, intentional stuff, I'm not talking about long term abuse of ourselves with the excess use of alcohol.
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:34
Okay, so usually, the most common advice to somebody who's having thoughts of doing something bad to themselves, is find somebody to talk to, pick up the phone and talk to the Samaritans, or find your best friend, or go find your mom, whatever. So in what way would you, would this, where would that fall?
Martin Furber 7:54
Okay, well, well, in terms of what I teach with Mental Health First Aid, in terms of young people and self harm, there's a lot of stuff out there that they signpost to these days, where young people who self harm, and young people who harm themselves can find other support. For example, there's an app out there called Calm-Harm, that encourage, again, it's getting back to this thing about the wave, it encourages young people to ride the wave. Because people who self harm usually it's an escapism from something, it's a coping mechanism for something that they know no other way of coping with. And so for example, they teach different skills. So if somebody gets the urge to say harm themselves by stabbing themselves with a pen, and encouraging, encouraging them to get ice cubes and squeeze on them really, really hard until that urge has passed, so we're doing something, they're feeling, they're getting rid of that adrenaline.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:54
Yeah, because that kind of self harm that isn't I need to obliterate myself. It's externalising what you're feeling inside.
Martin Furber 9:01
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then, as I say, there's an app I came across called Calm-Harm. And that was written by a young person who used to harm themselves. And it's written in the kind of language young people understand, It gets them through that urge. It gets them to... it distracts them, it's distraction, isn't it? It distracts them and gives them other ways of coping until that urge has passed, until it has subsided.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:30
Right, my concern would be it's it's just putting off the obvious. At some point they need to have a therapist they need
Martin Furber 9:39
Absolutely.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:40
What that issue is, if you're constantly distracting yourself and just putting, putting off seeking help. Does that particular app point people to organisations that would help them?
Martin Furber 9:52
Yeah, and vice versa. This is also for people who have seen you know, sought medical advice. they're perhaps being dealt with by CAHMS over here, the children and adolescent mental health services. This is one of the sort of things they will put in a toolbox to help people who self harm. This is on top of any additional therapy, etc. And absolutely, the thing here, if you know anybody who is self harming it's a medical intervention. Absolutely, as simple as that, you know, this is just talking about the urges in general and everything all around.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:27
Yeah, and most people don't worry if I want to go eat half a cake that there's not it's not a good idea
Martin Furber 10:32
That's the whole discussion though, when you're self care become self harm. Okay? If I get home from work all stressed out today, and I run myself a lovely big bubble bath, and pour myself a nice big gin and tonic and lounge about in there for half an hour swigging gin and tonic even though I haven't touched a drink for years. Is that self care or self harm?
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:55
I don't know, are you're gonna get addicted to alcohol?
Martin Furber 10:57
I've don't know, but if I if I term that, most people will say that self care but if I have five gin and tonics whilst I'm in that bath...
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:04
Erm, little different!
Martin Furber 11:05
Yeah. So you know, where's the line?
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:08
Well, I mean, it also would depend, I don't know, you and I haven't talked about alcohol much. Probably because, you know, I'm completely T-Total.
Martin Furber 11:16
So am I these days.
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:17
But did you have, did you consider alcohol a potentially harmful thing for you? That you might have gone down the wrong route with it? Or were you just a social drinker?
Martin Furber 11:28
No, I used to drink excessively, not daily, by any stretch of the imagination. But I was one of these people that if I was on a good night out, it wouldn't be a good night unless it was totally sloshed. Yeah, I mean, these days, I just don't touch anything. I can't remember the last time I had a drink.
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:48
Well, I mean, that's true about all self care really. It's what makes you feel good. What I like doing isn't necessarily what you like doing. But yes, I suppose there's self care and self indulgence.
Martin Furber 12:02
Yesd, self indulgence can turn into self harm can't it? But, getting back to more deliberate acts of self harm as in consuming toxic substances. Drinking bleach, stabbing yourself with a pen, cutting yourself. Other forms, what is it? You're good at the big words Denise. Trichotillomania, you know, when you start pulling your eyebrows out, your eyelashes, go on say it Denise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:26
No, I can't say it, shush! Trichotillomania!
Martin Furber 12:30
Thank you. We'll put it in the show notes.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:35
And we're laughing, but that isn't that when people do? It's particularly children actually. Yes. It's a stress symtptom.
Martin Furber 12:43
Yeah, absolutely. It is. But I've seen it with young people where they do our eyebrows, they do it to their eyelashes. You know, and they will do it as a deliberate act of self harm.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:53
Right.
Martin Furber 12:54
So again, it's about riding those urges, but then we get back to urges, okay. And this is the thing about where I think hypnosis could come into it, is when people have a better understanding of how their minds are working. Because when we get these urges for anything, okay, again, it's a bit like, out of the heat of the moment. In our logical mind, we know it's not good for us. So it's about keeping us in that logical side of the mind more. That's the way I see it. What do you think?
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:25
Well, yes, except for hypnotist takes you right out of the logical side of your mind.
Martin Furber 13:30
I know but... once we get back into that logical side of the mind, after we've had a reset.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:39
Right, yeah. Yeah, there are, I mean, there's so many things that people do. What, the other thing, of course, is to remember, that physical activity when you're depressed, instead of pulling your hair out which is a quite a common expression, that must be rooted in something, go for a walk. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, go for a walk or do jumping jacks if you can't go outside, or something.
Martin Furber 14:06
I always say with that, when I'm speaking to clients who are experiencing depression or anxiety, the least inclined you feel to go for that walk the better you will feel for it afterwards. The more good it will do you, absolutely, because that's when you are really down in the depths, you just do not want to walk, you don't want to go outside
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:26
You don't want to do anything, you pull the covers over your head.
Martin Furber 14:29
Over your head yes, yeah. And you'll do the same thing again the next day because that's what kept you safe the day before.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:35
Exactly, self-fulfilling prophecy. All right, so I will I will investigate how urge surfing, and how it relates to what I do with clients. What else is new?
Martin Furber 14:48
I was just thinking like sort of like combining it with hypnotherapy though. Mental rehearsal techniques. We do that in hypnotherapy a lot. And we're, you know, we're in that lovely, relaxed state, a nice state of hypnosis, blissful relaxation. But we can mentally rehearse anything whether it's our golf swing or that upcoming meeting or something like that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:13
So could you imagine yourself eating the cake?
Martin Furber 15:17
No, but you could imagine yourself surfing the urge. I was just gonna say urging the surf!
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:26
So you imagine how much better you will feel the following day when you haven't eaten the cake?
Martin Furber 15:31
Yeah, well see okay. There we go, talking of cake and weight loss and things. That's what I always do with my clients, weight loss clients, imagining themselves when they've achieved what they want to achieve.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:43
Oh, yes. You look forward five years from now, and you look like this.
Martin Furber 15:50
Yeah, that future mental rehearsal. So, this is what just got me thinking with urge surfing. You know, combining it with hypnosis. The mental rehearsal aspect of it for sure. Yeah,
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:02
Yeah. Where do you, is this just a phrase that's becoming very popular?
Martin Furber 16:07
Yeah, I've seen it popping up here and there.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:10
I'll have to watch out for it here, because it's bound to show up over here too.
Martin Furber 16:13
It usually starts over there and comes over here.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:16
I haven't seen it. Write in and tell us if it's been in America and I've been oblivious.
Martin Furber 16:21
It's popped into a few conversations with fellow professionals. I've seen it here and there, I've heard references to it off other people. As I say, I explained it in my newspaper column this week, one of my newspaper columns actually thought I'd write about it, because it's one of those little techniques that you can put into a general mental health and wellbeing column. As I've explained things in the past about future rehearsal. No, I just wondered if you've heard it, because I thought maybe this started in the States.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:55
Well, I'm possibly oblivious. Maybe it's in California and wandering over this way. One side of the country or the other? It's quite a ways.
Martin Furber 17:05
Right. Okay.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:07
So, what else? What else have you written about recently, because you write about mental health issues. So what, and that obviously spills over into a lot of hypnosis.
Martin Furber 17:18
I write about anything that I may possibly treat people for, or anything that's bothering the population in general, we did a feature recently on World Suicide Prevention Day, which was in September, writing about that, just giving out general information. What are some of the things I've written about recently? Toxic work environments.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:44
You'll get a lot of a lot of feedback from that, because I'm in so many doctors groups, and so many doctors are unhappy, and there was just a report. I can't remember the statistics exactly. But the number of health professionals who are threatened or actually harmed in the workplace, because people don't agree with what's happening.
Martin Furber 18:06
Threatened by patients you mean?
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:08
Patients and patients relatives. Yeah,
Martin Furber 18:09
Yeah, I can well believe that. Because of course, emotions are high people are ill. Doctors are working 14-15 hour shifts. Doctors don't have the time to explain things properly sometimes.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:27
Yeah, I think it's probably a bit beyond that. And we always when you give people bad news, you're very careful about where you position yourself in relation to their arms and legs. It sounds odd. But I mean, it was 40 years ago, when I was working in paediatrics, if you if you told somebody their little child was gone, and there was nothing else you could do. It was not uncommon for them to flail. They're not actually aiming at you. They're just the it's a well, yeah, lashing out the world. Exactly. So that, what we're seeing now is, is much more deliberate, thoughtful, harm. I mean, people's cars being attached and slashed and keyed. And yeah, just...
Martin Furber 18:27
Do you think this is like a way of the world though, Denise in general, like a loss of respect for authority in general?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:21
I think well, so I didn't really keep track very well of what's going on in the UK. But here in the States, though, is it's a very weird world we're in right now. Yeah, a lot of anxiety, a lot of upset, and and not coping with it inappropriate ways.
Martin Furber 19:41
Yeah. Do you think there's been a big change since Covid
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:47
Yeah. Some of it was coming before, but definitely that has worsened everything.
Martin Furber 19:54
I'm just thinking of long-term societal effects, from you know, being locked-up.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:59
Yeah. We've had a real spike in teenage depression.
Martin Furber 20:03
Yeah, we've got over here as well. Yeah, yeah, we've absolutely got that over here. The other thing over here is, are you talking about doctors and lashing out, or one thing another. The consultants and the junior doctors are all on strike today over here in the UK. Today's September that we're recording the show everybody. Yeah, the doctors, the consultants and the doctors are on strike today, which is the first time ever for them both be announced at the same. And the general opinion, you seem to see on the news of most people is they're in support of the doctors and the consultants. They are furious about the waiting lists themselves, but they do see the doctors and consultants do still seem to have the public sympathy. On an individual basis though, yeah, I've read different bits and pieces about NHS staff, particularly feeling and being more threatened than previously, and being actually attacked, rather than just threatened to be attacked, far more than it used to be. And again, it got me thinking, is this some kind of residual effect from Covid? Or is it a societal thing? You know, it's like, shoplifting over here has gone up something like 50% in the last year. Okay.
Martin Furber 20:14
Are they nicking posh handbags? Or are they taking food?
Martin Furber 21:21
Food? Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:23
So it's a different?
Martin Furber 21:24
Yeah, and is it for people that perhaps have never gone down the criminal route before they just find themselves in desperate situations. People that have, you know, often paid for things all their life are suddenly just succumbing to that temptation when they're out shoving, I don't know what, a packet or a box of whatever in the shopping bag, while they feel they're not being looked at. Something like the Co-op, you're familiar with the Co-op aren't you? They're reporting nationwide, something like 900 incidents a day in the UK, of shoplifting.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:02
Okay, let's dial it back to hypnosis again. How would you help somebody who was feeling so much pressure? If I, I'm your typical little old lady, I go shopping, and I suddenly decide I can't afford that box of biscuits, since I'm being talking to the English crowd, or cookies as Americans would say, and I slide it into my bag surreptitiously whether or not I get caught. And I'm overcome with horror that I did such a thing, my mother must be rolling in her grave. How would you help me deal with that?
Martin Furber 22:41
Well, the first thing I would say is don't beat yourself up about it, you know. Who hasn't made the mistake at some point in their life? You know, how would I say it just as one human being to another, if you feel that wracked about it, you know, go to the shop and leave some money on the counter and walk out again. Because that's, you know, it's often the way isn't it? When people have done something that's perhaps not fitting in with their usual moral compass. It's the guilt afterwards, that really, really affects them. So using hypnosis, you can you can help take that guilt away on something like that, for sure you can. Help settle their mind that, you know, they haven't just gone out and deliberately crashed somebody's car.
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:27
While allowing them to reset. Yeah, and giving them some options to go get food. Because you don't want to hypnotise somebody, so now they feel just fine nicking stuff!
Martin Furber 23:38
No, not at all. As I say, we're talking on a scale here.
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:42
Self-forgiveness.
Martin Furber 23:42
Yeah. So self-forgive. Absolutely. Yeah. Self forgiveness as well. You know, and as I say, if you did pinch a packet of biscuits and you wanted to put it right, just go in the shop, leave the money on the on the counter and walk out, don't say a word, if you felt that bad about about it. But, you know, it's like, it is easy, isn't it? This is what happens if we suddenly feel guilty about something. And this happens when we're stressed. If we're really stressed and anxious, when something's gone wrong in our life, we will automatically think of something we did, that was perhaps bad years ago, or something bad that happened to us, and it will start to go round and round and round in our minds. Whether that's, you know. Ii don't know, we could have done something, you know, terrible 20 years ago, or we deemed it to be terrible. I don't know, we cheated in an exam at school or something, it'll suddenly start going round in our mind. Or when we feel we might have offended somebody with something we said it'll suddenly come back to haunt us. And that can happen when we're stressed and we're anxious. And hypnosis can help with that. Yeah, yeah, for sure it can.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:50
I'm trying to imagine somebody writing on my intake form. You know, what you want to talk about> Nicking a box of biscuits!
Martin Furber 24:58
Well, you brought the subject up Denise about this. Is there something yoou want to tell me?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:04
No, I don't usually buy them. We both have appointments fairly soon.
Martin Furber 25:09
I know.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:10
What is coming up next week.
Martin Furber 25:11
What is coming up next week? We have got Beverly Densham on next week.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:17
Okay. Tell us about Beverly a little bit, so people know, and can watch out for it.
Martin Furber 25:22
Beverly is a Pilates instructor.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:26
Oh, our first non-hypnotist.
Martin Furber 25:28
The second non-hypnotist. The first one was her sister!
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:30
Yes, that's right. Well, that was hypnosis adjacent? That was hypnosis adjacent.
Martin Furber 25:32
Bev is a Pilates instructor, but is also very, very big on self improvement mind work, and helping people to feel their best selves. And she's also a firm believer in hypnotherapy as one of the things that you know, help people and I thought it would be good to get her on for a chat about what she does and what we do. And let's find some common ground.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:08
And probably that conversation will be a lot more linear than this one has been
Martin Furber 26:13
We go all over the place, don't we? So we've gone from urge surfing to nicking biscuits Now, if that old lady had been taught to resist that urge...
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:24
This old lady is gonna go to her next appointment now and I will see you next week.
Martin Furber 26:28
See you on the next one.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:38
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember, this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only to remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 26:55
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
