Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who'd like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis and the benefits that it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor and consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:37
Okay, yeah, let's get this show on the road, Denise. Good to see ya. How are you?
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:41
Good to see you again. We're both suffering from heat extreme, I think at the moment.
Martin Furber 0:46
I wouldn't call it extreme but it's warm. It's warm over here today. Yeah. Which is good, which is good. And very, very welcome I may add. Because whenever the sun is shining, it picks me right up.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:58
I like sunshine, but heat and I are not very good friends, but we've had a couple of weeks of it.
Martin Furber 1:04
No, we've only have two days, so I'm making the most of it. Anyway, a couple of episodes back you were sort of asking me questions about what made me a hypnotist and what the client journey is like in my practice, so I thought I would turn it around on you today. How does that sound?
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:20
Fair enough. Go ahead. She says, well, tremulously.
Martin Furber 1:25
No awkward questions. What made you a hypnotist?
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:28
I'm going to .....I, when I wasn't able to go back to medicine, because I couldn't put in 12 hour days anymore. And my brain works slower, and sometimes decided it wants to quit. I did some health coaching. And I was, I was fairly useful to people I think, and I and it certainly was relatively easy for me to remember the medicine that went behind the thoughts for those things, but it didn't really excite me at all. As much as I'd love talking to people, that part was fine, but it just didn't, academically it wasn't that challenging. And I took a hypnosis intro course.
Martin Furber 2:14
Okay,
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:15
For that time, it was a four episode. You can binge it, if you want to do you can do one a week. And I did that. And by the second one. That was it. That was what I should have been done. And when I realised during that, that four weeks, they told us how the American Medical Association, the British Medical Association had said that all doctors should be taught it. Right. That's fighting words.
Martin Furber 2:43
Oh, let me let me interrupt you there. Let me ask you. You said by the second episode, you were already decided this is what I'm going to do. Had you been hypnotised by that point, then?
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:55
No.
Martin Furber 2:56
No, Right? Okay.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:57
Um, once I was an enrolled student, we were partnered up so that people could practice techniques and get a sense of what was going on. But no, I was, I had been watching canned education for a month, and I could write to the tutor and ask questions. And that school's been around for 50 years. And for last 20 I think they've been offering distance. Maybe they did it by tape before way back in dark days. But yeah, it's, it's amazing to me, there was only about six, seven years ago, I had no clue. I had gone looking for information on hypnosis for a friend. Because the friend had an issue. And I just I just read bits on the internet. And suddenly realised, fell into this course. And then into the training. I also took online for the most part, online.
Martin Furber 4:03
Okay. Okay. So I'm just thinking, you know, you found those references, then back to way back 1951, wasn't it? When the American Medical Association British Medical Association.
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:17
I think it was 53 for Britain and 58 for the states, but I'll check, we'll put it in the notes. But it was certainly in the 50s during my lifetime. And there's no evidence that has ever happened. There are some schools over here that have had in the past, or are having now, some acceptance of hypnosis amongst the people teaching. So I think a couple of people are exposed to it a little bit, but it's very, you know, it's like any elective in any subject. You've got to have an interest to know that this stuff exists. It's not made readily available in the way I think it should be.
Martin Furber 5:00
Okay, yeah. And the thing is over here at the moment, mental health is becoming quite a big issue quite a big prominent thing. And you were talking before about wellbeing coaching. Yeah. Okay. Now over here, again, doctors are recommending things like meditation, and they're recommending other well being things. And yet still, hypnotherapy isn't there within the NHS.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:33
And it's strange that it isn't because there are enough hypnotists, too, to form, you know, within a few streets of the doctor's practice. I certainly could, and certainly with the hospitals they have. Now, it's not uncommon to find anaethetists who've done a certain amount of this. But they don't advertise that anywhere. They don't come and tell you, you know, you can have this or you can have this. No, I generally speaking, I would use gas and air and go out. I would like to be asleep for this operation. Thank you. But for some people, that just really isn't an option. It's a dangerous thing for them to have, if hypnosis is available, and they can be, obviously you wouldn't have somebody coming in fresh off the street and say, Good, I'll hypnotise you for that. You need to do some prep work and reassure them that it's going to work. But yeah, it would be so helpful. And there's a dentist, Mike, GOVE GOV, he's un in Edinburgh. And, and he runs the Braid society.
Martin Furber 6:44
James Braid yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:44
James, right. Yeah, yeah. One of the 1800s medical people who brought hypnosis along, he used it enough that people, you know, it was a very common thing. The trouble is that everybody says, Oh, it worked for this. It works for this, so it works. And this works for this. And it does, but it doesn't every single person. No, and no medication does either. There's not you know, there's always going to be a person who cannot use a particular thing, but it's, I'm glad I'm seeing a little bit of an uptick. Initially. I thought it was just you know how that is when, when you have a certain colour car, everyone's suddenly got that colour car.
Martin Furber 6:45
Yeah, you're aware of it.
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:28
Yeah, I thought it was that. But I do think there was a bit of an uptick at the moment.
Martin Furber 7:35
Oh, that's good, that's good.
Denise Billen-Mejia 7:37
It's been very much an expected, not an unexpected finding, that somebody's using hypnosis during childbirth.
Martin Furber 7:46
Yeah. Hypno birthing. Yeah, I mean, that that's been around for quite some time. And that does seem to be popular. One of my, I know she won't mind me saying it. One of my cousin's actually did Hypno birthing with her birth. And that's nearly 30 years ago now.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:04
It's been around for a while that Hypno birthing is a protected trademark thing. But hypnosis through childbirth can be done outside of that, you just can't call it Hypno birthing. But it's a, it's strange to me that so many people use that. And yet don't look at how many other things that might be helpful for, but they may indeed, be allowing themselves to be calmer, and to use the breathing techniques that they're told.
Martin Furber 8:35
Do you use hypnosis on yourself, for anything? I'm just thinking back to myself last week now. I went to the dental hygienist for my usual three monthly visit. Now. I have a real good sort-out there, they use the so called Sonic scraper thing, they really get stuck in and I have the full flush out and everything else. And I find it very strangely relaxing. I never used to before I was a hypnotherapist. Well, not, I don't sort of, knock myself zoned-out unconscious, but I can prepare myself for it. And I find it very, very relaxing, because it's very rare. I can just lie back for half an hour and switch off. And that's what I can do when they're doing that. And she always says to me, let me know if there's any discomfort. Let me know if you want me to stop, this that and the other, and I'm like, well get on with it. And no, I wouldn't say I wouldn't call that self-hypnosis.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:42
It's hypno-adjacent isn't it Yeah.
Martin Furber 9:43
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's very, very relaxing. But I've just pre-framed my expectations beforehand. That you know, as soon as I hear the sound, I will feel completely relaxed.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:53
So, yeah, it's certainly quite common for people with dental fears to go to a hypnotist.
Martin Furber 10:01
Yeah, I Well, I've never had any dental fears. I've treated people for dental fears. For most people, it's that discomfort. It's that invasion of space. And it's that fear of having that first needle. And because after that first needle, you don't really feel anything, do you?
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:18
No this is true, but some people want to be able to go through the entire procedure without the needle at all. For some people that's necessary, because they have an allergy issue with medications or they need to be able to feel their face immediately, after they've finished working on their teeth. The anaesthesia takes a while to work off wear off. What's what's infuriating to me is so many things, it would have been useful for me to have had. Yeah, I had three kids. And I could have had a hypno birth in there somewhere. Yeah, of course.
Martin Furber 10:52
But moreover, when you were a paediatrician, I would have thought, okay, you saw children in various distressed states. I'm talking distressed through physical injury, not anything deeper. Okay. So some child, think of some injuries, you know, a broken ankle, a broken arm, or the kinds of bumps and scrapes children have
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:15
All the stitches on their faces.
Martin Furber 11:17
Yeah, mean, that's another one, when you're having to...
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:20
From a technical point of view, it's very simple repair. But when you were a little child,
Martin Furber 11:25
And you're coming at them with a needle and thread, and that child's already hurt and injured, and you've got to inflict more pain on them putting the stitches through. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So. Okay, so how could hypnosis have helped them? What particular technique might you have applied? Or?
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:45
I don't know, as I suspect you would have to it would, it would depend on how old the child was, and what their personality type was. Did you when you were in training, did you just differentiate between people who, in my school they call it emotional and physical? Just way the way people saw the world?
Martin Furber 12:04
The personality types yeah, we did it from a different angle. There's a really cool book actually called warriors nomads, and, I can't remember the other bit!
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:18
That's as bad as our friend with polar bears!
Martin Furber 12:20
Yeah. I'll find the book. And I'll put it in the show notes. Okay. All right. It was a really good book we read and that goes on the personality types, but, it's loosely done around Freud with everything you want. You either want to eat it, get it out the other end or do something else with it. Loosely based around that for personality types. So all right, I want to pick your brains a little bit. Now Denise, like you picked mine on the last but one episode.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:50
Good luck!
Martin Furber 12:51
Okay, good. All right. Now, you became qualified in hypnosis. Okay. And I know that you operate mainly online, but tell me a client journey. Typically, I know, there's no typical client because everybody's different. But what would somebody expect if they made an inquiry with you? All right.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:13
But first-up, I have seen a few people in person because they live local. And for a while, I thought I would have a hybrid practice thing. Covid threw that out. And I said, I'm staying, just be online. But I do occasionally do in person visits if, if if it's warranted. What was your question?
Martin Furber 13:39
Describe what would happen if I contacted you as a potential client? If I got in touch with you and said, Hey, Denise, I'm, I'm dealing with extreme anxiety at the moment and there's a lot going on in my life. Can you help me with hypnosis? What would you say?
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:56
Yes, hypnosis can be very useful in circumstances like this. Is this our Is this our first meeting? Is this the first call? My my intro call is shorter than yours, because I don't do any hypnosis. But it can be as long as, as long as the potential client wants to be talking to me about their changes. In, within less than an hour please, because I've got other clients but a lot of, I don't get very many people who don't believe it will work. I've had a couple, one of whom was was sent to me because he wanted to lose weight and weight is a very common issue for people to take to a hypmnotist. Which is good for hypnotist because it works. But this gentleman was a patient of a physician who did refer other cases to me and so he did not believe it will work. But he wasn't anti. He was, it was he was just sceptical.
Martin Furber 14:54
Yeah, okay.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:56
And that's how we proceeded I saw him for a full session, hypnotised him, and then I would see them once a week because it's, it's one of those things you don't want to leave too long.
Martin Furber 15:08
No, no, with weight loss, that's right.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:10
So, and then every so often, we would do a full session so that because they needed to have some additional thing put into the mix. And he was really very funny, a very sweet guy. And we were talking about, he was a very interesting retiree. who had a very interesting life. And we would talk, and then we would do the hypnosis at some point during that time he is I don't know why this is working. To give you some technical, what we think is happening, but does it really matter? Is it working? This is the question, is it working? Is it doing any harm? Obviously, you know, lots of things work to do things.
Martin Furber 15:51
Yeah, I mean, I suppose when it comes to the mind, people want to know, the ins and outs of how it works. Whereas if you had, as a doctor, as you are, prescribed a drug for somebody with, I dont know, any kind of physical complaint, they don't need to know, and they don't generally ask the ins and outs of how does this drug work? And you don't start giving them the full biological explanation.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:16
No, but you do thell them if it's got a particularly well known side effect that happens, sometimes you would pre, forewarn them that, don't worry about that It'll wear off, or stop taking it right away and call me because there could be a real problem. I don't think that would ever happen with hypnosis. But I've definitely had one gentleman very, very sweet guy. And the first session was just a bust. I felt it. He was he was trying so hard. He was trying so hard. It was getting his own way. So after the session, I said we'll do another one in a couple of weeks. And we'll start we just started the clock again. And he was absolutely fine. He just he needed that first one as a dummy run, to see that nothing terrible is gonna happen. He did really well.
Martin Furber 17:05
Yeah, I mean, do you ever give, excuse me, a simple analogy of how hypnosis works, but oversight sort of thing if people ask.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:15
I do explain a little bit, it does depend on on their interest, and their age and a bunch of stuff. How would you explain it?
Martin Furber 17:25
Well, I explain, I always give a bit of a metaphor about what the subconscious is or is not, and explain that you can't point to a picture of the brain and say that's a subconscious because it doesn't physically exist. And then the example I like to give how hypnosis works is, and why I explain it takes time, and I will say, if you watch a really good film, or have you ever watched a really good film that you've enjoyed, and you've slept on it, and the following few days, little bits of it, keep playing back to you. It keeps reminding you of the good bits that you really enjoyed. And I say hypnosis is a little bit like that, the suggestions that we share with you will keep replaying, and you'll keep remembering them and they will start to perhaps alter your habitual performance.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:10
Even without you actively remembering. They can, they can go slowly, which is why I never see anybody closeer than a week. Much more likely to be two weeks. But most people can do that. But some people's schedules don't allow them and they have to sort of fiddle around. But, it isn't necessary that you know the ins and outs of hypnosis for it to work. You do have to trust the hypnotist. Oh, yeah. So you do have to spend some time first, especially that first visit. Where you are really spending some conversational time.
Martin Furber 18:45
Yeah, I mean rapport is the essential part isn't it for any therapy to work, any kind of therapy.
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:51
Yes, I'm gonna do stitches. You want to make sure the doctor's chatting with you.
Martin Furber 18:55
Yeah, have the doctor in a good mood, otherwise, they're just going to pull them?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:00
No, I'm professional, sir.
Martin Furber 19:03
Yeah, I think it's just because of the mysticism with hypnosis. So if you went to, or if a person went to a CBT therapist. I doubt very much they'll say, so tell me how CBT works. Yeah, they just go along with that CBT therapy and whatever that involves. It's just that thing it's that mystery, isn't it?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:24
And of course, hypnosis has been used as a trope for so many movies and so many shows. I've been to a couple of live shows since becoming a hypnotist just for curiosity sake. And then most of them are very good but you can you can if you already trained at it, you could see see what people are really under, or just playing along and being good sports. Hmm. My problem with that, I really don't wish them any ill will at all, but it does kind of get in the way of the serious side of hypnosis, it tends to sound like you want me send me to a quack, you don't really think this is a real thing. I do think it's a real thing.
Martin Furber 19:24
So, I've never, not in 30 years been to a stage hypnosis thing. When I did watch, have you heard of Derren Brown?
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:23
Vaguely.
Martin Furber 20:24
Yeah, okay. He's, he describes himself more as a mentalist, and he has written books. He wrote a really good book a couple of years ago. And it is based around stoicism and the principles of it, etc. But he did a stage show, which was televised, recently, within the last 12 months sort of thing. And I was watching it with with Nick. And I said to Nick, because he was he was doing various routines, sort of thing, all in a very respectful manner, I may add. Not doing any kind of performance things, doing more memory things with people. And as he brought several people to the stage I pointed to one and said, that's the one you'll keep on, and he did. Because you could, you could tell the person that was genuinely in a trance.
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:17
But that's the problem is not, I don't object to people being entertained by that, really. But it bothers me that you, you, as a therapeutic hypnotist, to have to, you've got to plough through all of that resistance, before you get to the other end. Now, usually, when people have, most people are over that, or they call me. Sometimes it's like, you have to call this person or I'm leaving you, whatever. And they call me and they don't really want to hire me. They already, they they're going through the motions to do what the wife or the girlfriend or whoever, and, and calling me that they really don't want to be hypnotised.
Martin Furber 22:01
Well then it won't work. It's the same I had a quite a while ago now. A call with a gentleman that got in contact with me. Exactly that kind of thing. I want to stop smoking. He said, I said How much do you want to stop smoking? Well, I don't want to but my wife's making me. She's told me.. It's not gonna work. You've got to want to! Have you any other experiences of managing expectations? Because really, for both of us, it is quite a part of the client journey, isn't it managing expectations in the first place.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:37
Whilst whilst also instilling the idea that it's going to work.
Martin Furber 22:40
Oh yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:41
it is quite difficult. Most people, we sell our services differently?
Martin Furber 22:50
Yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:51
I take an educated guess at how long something will take, I quote them a price. And if you're done before you keep those extra time in your back pocket and come and see me again. And if you're not, they're happy because they've had the result. Yeah. And they get three weeks free. And if it takes longer than that, then I will continue until they've had enough of it. They're sick of it. Now. In that occasionally you will meet somebody that you cannot hypnotise for that issue. And you know that the resistance is so strong from that person and so it doesn't mean that hypnosis wouldn't work necessarily, it might well be a different hypnotist or a different method of hypnotism. They're very closely aligned but some of us you know, you just. Does everybody like Boots? I was thinking of the drugstore not the shoe thing but I can't think of another big brand name that would fit who they don't sell drugs.
Martin Furber 24:01
Superdrug
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:03
All right. So that's, that's the thing, you have, everybody's got natural preferences. If one hypnotist doesn't, you don't feel comfortable with, don't give up on the idea of hypnosis. That person would almost certainly, if they're ethical, give you the name of one or two others in your area, or you can search online. But you do need to make sure that that you feel comfortable with the person.
Martin Furber 24:29
Yeah, but this is what I was saying. I mean, rapport is everything, building that rapport with the client. They've got to feel understood. They've got to feel heard. And they've got to feel confident in your ability. Yeah. And they've got to feel confident in your ability. And I think that's, you know, this is sort of an important thing to get across to any potential clients for us that are watching this. We would never trivialise something because sometimes people are embarrassed and they may suffer with, some kind of anxiety that most other people wouldn't suffer with, or it wouldn't affect most other people. And sometimes people come to me, and they feel a bit silly about their issue in the first place. Do you have that?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:13
Yes. Yeah.
Martin Furber 25:16
And you know, if it's affecting you is not silly, is it?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:20
Yeah, exactly. I mean, sometimes they'll say, Oh, it's just a silly thing, but I want to get rid of it. And that's fine. But most things, if you are not suffering from it, it doesn't seem like a serious thing.
Martin Furber 25:36
Exactly. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. But we, you know, I think that's a point I'd like to get across. That we, you know, if you think it's an issue, then it is an issue, no matter what your friends say, or your family or anybody else. If it's an issue for you, it's an issue for you, isn't it?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:52
How do you advertise your services? I know you've got a lot of ways. How many blogs is it now five, six?
Martin Furber 26:05
Well, they're not blogs, they are newspaper articles, it's five, five newspapers. And I do get people contacting me from them. But the main aim of those wasn't for roping clients as individuals, it was just to increase general awareness and just get the conversation going about mental health. Because, as you know, I'm quite passionate about that. But in terms of advertising, it's all referrals these days, either referrals from the clinic, referrals from other professionals, people who, you know, I've known through the profession, people in adjacent therapies. It's all referrals. I've not advertised, not advertised at all.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:54
Advertising as in I have a Facebook page.
Martin Furber 26:58
Yeah, I mean, I have a Facebook page. I have a LinkedIn profile. And we do this podcast.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:04
Yeah, we'll be very happy if you contact either or both of us.
Martin Furber 27:08
Yeah, absolutely. You'll always find our contact details in the show notes. Denise, we've filled an episode. Is there anything you want to add about the customer experience or client experience at your practice?
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:18
I think we should probably tell them, actually, when we're working with a client, we're a lot more organised than we are when we're talking to each other on this podcast.
Martin Furber 27:25
This is literally just a conversation between friends.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:28
Exactly.
Martin Furber 27:29
And I hope that this helps dispel some of those myths that hypnosis is, you know, all mysterious, and it's a blank wall. There's a cloak there that you must have. Yeah, no, not at all. Not at all when we're just people on either side of the pond. Exactly.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:50
Okay, bye
Martin Furber 27:51
Bye.
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:00
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember, this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 28:17
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
