[00:00:00] Martin Furber: Okay. So welcome to episode three, Denise. No guests this week, it's you and I.
[00:00:04] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. Episode three already. So it must be the beginning of the year already by the time people are hearing this.
[00:00:11] Martin Furber: It
is, it is, it is. So belated Happy New Year to anybody who's just tuned in.
[00:00:16] Denise Billen-Mejia: Oh, a couple of years, couple of weeks in possibly. Good. So what are we going to talk about today, my dear?
[00:00:21] Martin Furber: Well, I'll tell you what we're not going to talk about because it's the New Year. We're not going to talk about New Year's resolutions because everybody will have them.
[00:00:26] Denise Billen-Mejia: Oh,
okay. Well, can I actually make a little back, back plug?
If you haven't joined my course on resolutions, help with resolutions, take a look at my website. Um, I'm putting it together this week. Well, you know, we always do this a couple of weeks before we're actually recording.
[00:00:44] Martin Furber: Okay.
[00:00:44] Denise Billen-Mejia: So,
um, was there a particular item of hypnosis that you wish?
[00:00:51] Martin Furber: Well, I,
I keep getting emails on Google alerts for hypnosis or hypnotherapy.
And I keep seeing the same words repeated like, buzzwords for wants of a better description.
[00:01:04] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well, the advertising trade is getting to us again. Okay.
[00:01:07] Martin Furber: Is that what it is? Yeah. I keep hearing these different buzzwords, um, time and time again, things like neuro hypnosis.
[00:01:16] Denise Billen-Mejia: Where else would hypnosis work?
Okay.
[00:01:20] Martin Furber: Okay. Yeah. So yeah, we know, I mean, I talk about the neuroscience behind it and I know you do to some degree as well.
[00:01:26] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. It's nice to understand what you're doing sort of, yeah. We're fairly certain that most of what we're saying is. sort of like this rather than this is what it is, although it's getting better because we've got machines now that you see.
Yeah, imaging can show you where, where things are happening.
[00:01:44] Martin Furber: Yeah, and also what's happening in terms of like brain waves. So you've got, you know, your Beta your alpha and we want to get into theta, don't we, for trance?
[00:01:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Just, just on the cusp of theta.
[00:01:55] Martin Furber: Just on the cusp, um, which of course we can see with imaging these days.
Um, yeah. I think that's helpful to people to perhaps skeptics or to people, even like ourselves, we've never been able to fully understand and explain what happens during hypnosis. Because one of the things I've been taught is that when we're in that state, okay, it used to be assumed that we're in a state of rest and our mind is quite quiet, but it's not.
[00:02:23] Denise Billen-Mejia: That's what they used to think about sleep. It's not true. Yeah.
[00:02:26] Martin Furber: No, it's white hot. There's all kinds of things going on. Um, and apparently certain parts of your brain are far more active when you are so called relaxing, i. e. in trance, than when you are concentrating on something. If you were sort of concentrating in a lecture
[00:02:43] Denise Billen-Mejia: graciously, so you should get hypnotized before you go to a lecture.
You might remember it better. .
[00:02:50] Martin Furber: Uh, yeah. Interesting. So yeah, neuro hypnosis was, uh, a buzzword of seeing, you know, in, in emails and alerts and that kind of thing. And then,
[00:03:00] Denise Billen-Mejia: yeah, I always, I always assume people have put, thrown that in to sort of give it a sense of legitimacy.
Because
there's, there's still this Cloak thing and it's, it's not, not quite joined the ranks of, yes, it's a real thing.
It is a real thing, people. Yeah, but this is one of us.
[00:03:17] Martin Furber: This is
where you've got the differentiation between where you are in the States and where I am in the UK because, um, you know, we, we'll use terms like hypnotherapist where you can't do that in all of your states.
[00:03:28] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right.
[00:03:29] Martin Furber: Um, and more and more people are using the term clinical hypnotherapist. Which again sort of differentiates even things greatly, um, from hypnotist over here. Hypnotist just means swinging watches stage performance,
[00:03:42] Denise Billen-Mejia: right? Yeah. Whereas we have to use the word hypnotist. I'm hypnotist, but I don't go on stages unless I'm talking to people. Yeah.
[00:03:51] Martin Furber: Okay.
[00:03:51] Denise Billen-Mejia: So what other buzzwords have you come across recently?
[00:03:55] Martin Furber: Positive psychology and hypnosis.
[00:03:57] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well,
positive psychology has been around for quite a while now.
[00:04:01] Martin Furber: Yeah. Um.
[00:04:03] Denise Billen-Mejia: Back
when I was in uni.
[00:04:04] Martin Furber: And you wouldn't want to do negative
psychology, would you?
[00:04:08] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well, no, it is, we don't dwell on the negative stuff, we'll just talk about the positive stuff.
[00:04:13] Martin Furber: Yeah. Another one though, mindfulness based hypnosis. Now, one of my very first questions at hypno school was what's the difference between mindfulness and hypnosis? And so when you talk about mindfulness based hypnosis, yeah, it's a bit of an oxymoron though, isn't it?
Mindfulness based hypnosis.
[00:04:31] Denise Billen-Mejia: Interesting. How would you explain that?
[00:04:34] Martin Furber: Well.
[00:04:34] Denise Billen-Mejia: Are you reading that? Is there a definition for that explanation?
[00:04:39] Martin Furber: Yeah, the definition you've got to hear,
it says, this integrates mindfulness practices with hypnosis, emphasizing present moment awareness and acceptance. To me, that would be more about the pre talk rather than the actual trans part.
Um, I was told the main difference between the two is the fact that mindfulness is about just acknowledging thoughts and being in the present moment, whereas hypnosis is guided meditation. We're going on a journey with it.
[00:05:04] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, I mean, of course, you don't have to be guided with the actual whatever you're using the talk to get you into that state.
Many people can do self hypnosis. I think self hypnosis is a worthwhile thing to talk about because most of us teach that to our clients. And you've gone through and you've had whatever it should be. You want them to be able to do the same thing, which is why you send audios home with them. So they do every night, they put the audio on, and they allow themselves to go into trance.
[00:05:36] Martin Furber: Okay, well let's say we've got somebody watching this podcast now or listening to this podcast who's never been hypnotized, who's just curious. What do you think is going to appear in their mind when they think of self hypnosis? To me, they're probably going to be thinking they've got to swing a watch in front of themselves.
[00:05:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Um, well they don't have to swing a watch to see either of us, so they wouldn't need to do that. I don't know. I mean, we do colloquially, we use the word hypnosis quite a lot. Mm. Oh, I was just hypnotized by this or this add hypnotized me into thinking I really needed to spend that much money on the bracelet.
You know, it's a word that's been around in common parlance for so long that it's lost meaning, which is a shame. Well, it's hypnotist. Uh, and there's a, a lot of people who've tried to rebrand and receive, push from it. There are some states here where you're not allowed to be a hypnotist.
[00:06:29] Martin Furber: Really?
[00:06:30] Denise Billen-Mejia: So
people have rebranded. Very smart people have rebranded to do completely. That's where sleep talk came from.
[00:06:36] Martin Furber: Right. Okay.
[00:06:37] Denise Billen-Mejia: In Australia at one point you could not, in a particular state in Australia, you could not be a hypnotist therapeutically unless you were a doctor. And so the woman who had found this really useful hypnosis technique rebranded it as sleep talk.
And it's one of this. I don't know if you you've studied sleep talk but it's a usually a parent talking to their child in that just before they're not quite as you you rouse them from sleep ever so slightly to the point where they sort of blink at you and go back on the pillow. That and so you know that they're in the right wavelength at that point.
Excuse me while I stick these things on your head. Um, you know, that's pretty much where they are. So, and then you speak to them and you give them these positive messages. And it is extremely successful
[00:07:28] Martin Furber: well, yeah, because hypnosis
is exactly that point, isn't it? Where you're just about to fall asleep.
It's not quite awake.
[00:07:34] Denise Billen-Mejia: Or just about
waking up. We don't usually try and catch people there, but yeah.
[00:07:39] Martin Furber: Yeah. And interestingly, those are the two times when any of us can actually experience something that isn't quite there, such as hearing your name being called out when there's nobody there, just as we fall off to sleep or just as we wake up because everything's not quite real, is it?
[00:07:57] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. Yeah. It's your, imagination has taken over completely,
[00:08:00] Martin Furber: I always say it replicates REM sleep when somebody is deeply relaxed and I see them in a trance and you can see their eyes moving underneath their eyelids. Which replicates the physical appearance of REM sleep, but I think it actually does the same thing inside the mind as well.
You know, when we. Get our proper REM sleep. That's when we are detaching emotion from our memories, isn't it? We're turning them into narrative memories.
[00:08:25] Denise Billen-Mejia: That's the part of sleep you can't just knock out and ignore. It's not that you should ignore any of the cycles. Get enough sleep. It's really important.
I mean, going into hypnosis, is a great idea, but get a good night's sleep.
[00:08:39] Martin Furber: Oh yeah,
absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:08:41] Denise Billen-Mejia: And it's
free for most people.
[00:08:43] Martin Furber: But in terms of
usefulness though, I think, um, the hypnotic trance, you know, maybe half an hour, that's probably equivalent to two or three hours of REM sleep.
[00:08:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: That's
what we found.
You can hypnotize somebody and inform them that when they wake up, they will feel fully alert and awake. And people truly do. Similarly, have you done any, worked or experienced yourself using a flotation tank?
[00:09:07] Martin Furber: No, no, they were big in the 80s and 90s.
[00:09:09] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah,
I think they're making a little bit of resurgence.
The technology's come along. You don't have to go into a sort of diving bell so much anymore. But you almost fall asleep while you're floating. Once you get over the fear, I'm not going to sink. I'm not going to drown. It's okay.
[00:09:26] Martin Furber: Have you been in one?
[00:09:28] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, there's one in Jersey near where I lived. I only went to it a couple of times.
It's a really nice feeling.
[00:09:36] Martin Furber: I've never been in one, but I'm imagining the experience is very similar to lying on a waterbed. You feel fully supported, but
[00:09:45] Denise Billen-Mejia: you'd have to work really hard to go under.
[00:09:47] Martin Furber: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we had a waterbed years ago, before we moved to this house and it was the best night's sleep I ever had.
[00:09:56] Denise Billen-Mejia: I used to have one. Yeah.
[00:09:58] Martin Furber: Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic sleep. However, I snored really, really loudly with it and woke the neighbors up.
Yeah. We were living in an apartment.
With concrete floors. Hence it could take the weight of a water bed.
Um, but it used to wake the neighbors up. So we had to get rid of it. Uh, yeah, I used to sleep absolutely soundly. Um, yeah. Best night's sleep ever, ever on a water bed.
[00:10:22] Denise Billen-Mejia: So we're going to plug the waterbeds and meditation.
[00:10:25] Martin Furber: Let's get back to what we're talking about. Buzzwords. Okay. Another one I've heard a lot.
Trauma informed. What does it mean?
[00:10:33] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes. I mean, really it's shorthand for, I know that trauma can be awkward sometimes and I'm not going to trample all over your feelings while you try and explain it to me. What do you, what do you think is the, what's the current official definition?
[00:10:50] Martin Furber: A trauma informed approach to me is making sure you don't unsettle, upset, or re traumatize whoever it is you're helping. So being perhaps a little more mindful of the language you're using, when you're helping that person.
[00:11:05] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right. But as a buzzword, it's used because somebody's selling your course.
[00:11:10] Martin Furber: Oh, yeah.
[00:11:10] Denise Billen-Mejia: Learn to learn to be trauma informed.
[00:11:12] Martin Furber: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, surely, aren't we all trauma informed anyway, or we should be?
[00:11:20] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well, the thing is, the question though, is if you have not experienced something yourself, can you truly? understand somebody else's issue.
[00:11:30] Martin Furber: Well, it depends if you can connect with the feelings that that person is displaying, doesn't it?
I mean, this is, you're getting over to empathy there, aren't you? If, you know, if you tell me something about you, that's really unsettling and upsetting to empathize properly, I need to connect with the same kind of feeling inside myself.
[00:11:46] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes.
But you also, in order to be helpful to the person, you can't completely join them in that discovery to be there to be able to help them out.
[00:11:54] Martin Furber: Yeah. And it's getting that balance then, isn't it?
[00:11:59] Denise Billen-Mejia: What kinds of things do you work with that you think a trauma informed approach is necessary? I think it's obviously a useful tool to have anyway.
[00:12:08] Martin Furber: Anybody with anxiety of any kind. Um, that's what I would say. And this is why, I suppose, you could say the solution focused approach that I take is trauma informed.
Because I
[00:12:21] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right. About the same time as the buzzword.
[00:12:23] Martin Furber: Yeah, well, but when somebody comes to me and they say, I need your help, I say, you know, what would you like help with, or what would be your best hopes for therapy? Typical therapist question there. Um, and they say, well, this happened, that happened, that happened.
I always say, well, thank you for telling me that. You'll be pleased to know that's the only time you need to tell me about that. We don't need to talk about that again.
[00:12:46] Denise Billen-Mejia: Do you, do you get many people who know they have. a symptom and don't know where it came from?
[00:12:52] Martin Furber: Yes.
[00:12:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Okay. So what approach would you be using?
Trauma informed? We should all
[00:12:58] Martin Furber: okay,
so if somebody says to me, I am anxious when going out of the house, when doing this, when doing that, I'm very anxious. It's like this horrible feeling or whatever. I'll say to them, tell me about the times you don't feel like that.
Um, so again, we're not concentrating on the bad, we're not concentrating on the anxiety. You're reconnecting that client with the fact that they don't always feel like that. Okay. So let's concentrate on when they feel differently from the presenting issue.
[00:13:29] Denise Billen-Mejia: You look for what's happening around you when you feel good, rather than what's happening around you when you feel bad.
[00:13:34] Martin Furber: Yeah,
we're looking for the exceptions and we're concentrating on those, and then trying to find if we can create more of those exceptions.
[00:13:40] Denise Billen-Mejia: Perhaps with a clue as to what to avoid in order not to feel the other way.
[00:13:44] Martin Furber: Yeah, so I would call that a trauma informed approach. Would you?
[00:13:50] Denise Billen-Mejia: I think yes, it's certainly.
There was a, do you need a trauma informed psychiatrist or trauma informed, I hope so.
[00:13:58] Martin Furber: I would hope they are
[00:13:59] Denise Billen-Mejia: all right. Well, we've been blathering on what's, what's the takeaway from this, this conversation that we're having today?
[00:14:05] Martin Furber: Well, there's a lot of buzzwords about, but you look behind the buzzwords and look at the basics.
Cause this is where I say with hypnosis, although yes, there are advances in terms of what we can see these days with. imaging, etc. Nothing's really changed, has it? It just gets repackaged?
[00:14:25] Denise Billen-Mejia: No, it's exactly, it's back with mesmer. Well, it didn't take three days to get anybody into trance anymore. We do, we do have a few proven ways to help people get into trance.
The person trusting you is the biggest one. So that really is, if you, if you're considering hypnosis for X, Y, Z. Then you should call one or two hypnotists and talk to them and, and get a feel for whether you, you can work with somebody, almost everybody, everybody I know has a free session, a free discovery call. Exactly. So that you can get to know them a little bit. And so the hypnotist would know whether they would be a good fit for you too. And then, you know, get the other questions out of the way, how much do you charge?
[00:15:09] Martin Furber: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I would say that goes for any kind of therapist, not just a hypnotherapist, but also any kind of personal service of any description you want to have a rapport there.
[00:15:19] Denise Billen-Mejia: Having a new hairdresser. You want to have a conversation with people. No, please come at me with scissors, we've barely met.
[00:15:30] Martin Furber: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's what I would say beware of the buzzwords, maybe beware of the hype. I would say on certain things, you know, hypnotherapy is long established, proven practices.
[00:15:40] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, it isn't these buzzwords haven't given us new techniques. We've figured out which techniques belong to which label.
[00:15:46] Martin Furber: Yeah, but also in just going back to what we were talking about 10 minutes ago about new names for certain kinds of things, maybe because of legal reasons or whatever, but it's like some therapists, um, or some people who operate giving therapy call themselves life coaches.
[00:16:03] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:16:04] Martin Furber: It's a form of therapy, isn't it?
[00:16:07] Denise Billen-Mejia: It certainly can be.
[00:16:07] Martin Furber: If you talk to somebody who makes you feel better, it's a form of therapy.
[00:16:11] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right.
[00:16:12] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Denise Billen-Mejia: Therapeutic chat. We do therapeutic chatting, yes.
[00:16:15] Martin Furber: Yeah. Well, that brings our therapeutic chat to an end for this week, Denise.
[00:16:19] Denise Billen-Mejia: Very well. You can go off and edit all these things and get things out, and I'll see you again
[00:16:24] Martin Furber: okay. See you on the next one with our guest.
[00:16:27] Denise Billen-Mejia: Oh, that's right. Okay. We'll keep it a secret. Okay.
[00:16:32] Martin Furber: Tune in next week.
