[00:00:00] Martin Furber: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Denise, here we go. Episode seven.
Good afternoon, how are you?
[00:00:07] Denise Billen-Mejia: It goes really fast.
And this is being recorded only a couple of days before I have to go out.
Yeah. Yeah. We do get ahead of ourselves for a bit, but it never lasts, unfortunately. I think that when you and I were talking, um, earlier about what we should speak about, we were talking about maybe, let's go back a little bit to the basics. In case there's any people wandering through who might become interested in hypnosis or questions about hypnosis.
Um, why don't we talk just a little bit about the history.
[00:00:38] Martin Furber: Yeah. Okay.
[00:00:40] Denise Billen-Mejia: Uh, let's see. Modern practice.
[00:00:43] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:00:43] Denise Billen-Mejia: I don't mean 1980s one. Yeah. From Mesmer on when hypnotism, the name hypnotism was attached after Mesmer.
[00:00:52] Martin Furber: Yeah. Well mesmerized.
[00:00:54] Denise Billen-Mejia: He calls it mesmerizing. Yeah. And, and, but most people when they think about hypnosis can trace it back to, to Mesmer.
Freud, believe it or not. We'll get to that in a bit.
[00:01:05] Martin Furber: Okay. Yeah. Well, we said we'd chat today about what we're going to include in the next series because we're going to cover a lot of things out in the next series as well.
[00:01:13] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes. And that's also as a call out on, on here to anybody from ancillary mental health areas who would like to talk to us about what they practice.
The CBT people. Uh I can't even think. I think I think too much about hypnosis, these days I've lost all the other names but all the other varieties of therapy, talk therapy. Yeah. It's out there.
[00:01:37] Martin Furber: Yeah,
I mean, I think maybe not a lot of people know that the actual term hypnosis was braid, wasn't it?
[00:01:44] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, of course.
[00:01:45] Martin Furber: Yeah, back in 1843.
[00:01:47] Denise Billen-Mejia: You may have a lot of people saying, who the heck's braid? Braid was a Scottish surgeon.
[00:01:51] Martin Furber: He was.
[00:01:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Who promoted hypnotism a great deal and did surgery under hypnosis. You would think that it's, it's got a lot of very practical uses as well as moesoteric ones.
Yeah. What's interesting though is he started with the term hypnosis and then wanted to change it, didn't he? To monoidism
I don't think that would have caught on
[00:02:15] Martin Furber: it's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it?
[00:02:16] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. The only, the only issue that most of us have is you're not really asleep. It's the just before you go to sleep, it's not really hypnosis yet.
[00:02:25] Martin Furber: Well, that's how I always describe it to people. I always say it's just that bit when you're just on the edge of falling asleep.
[00:02:31] Denise Billen-Mejia: When somebody says, are you awake and you have to think about the answer, that's, that's where you are.
[00:02:36] Martin Furber: Or when you, I always say when you've been in a daydream, Oh yeah.
[00:02:40] Denise Billen-Mejia: Daydream is self hypnosis. That's what you're doing. You go somewhere else. Yeah.
[00:02:44] Martin Furber: Yeah, absolutely, if ever you were in a daydream at school back in the day and the teacher saw it, they'd throw the board eraser at you.
[00:02:51] Denise Billen-Mejia: Which came as such a shock because you didn't see it coming. Yeah.
[00:02:56] Martin Furber: Oh dear. Yeah. So I mean, we'll go into that in a little bit more detail, I think in the next video.
[00:03:02] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes. So that is a shout out, quick shout out to anybody who may be listening who is a practitioner of the other adjacent arts. We would love to talk to you and maybe have you come on the show and talk about your practice.
So the more we can know, the better off we all are, right?
[00:03:16] Martin Furber: Yeah, including things such as NLP, etc.
[00:03:19] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right. Well, NLP, of course, grew out of hypnotism. A lot of people think, no, it didn't. Yes, it
[00:03:25] Martin Furber: Yes, it did. And Richard Bandler would be the first to say that as well.
[00:03:29] Denise Billen-Mejia: Hmm. Okay, so let's start at the beginning, because we always confuse people by sort of jumping in and talking all over the place.
What would you like to talk about first, Martin?
[00:03:38] Martin Furber: What I thought was we could talk about what we could talk about in the next series today, because as you say, You know, there's the science of hypnosis, that sort of exploring the neurological underpinnings of hypnosis.
[00:03:50] Denise Billen-Mejia: And indeed, give a shout out to the people who do listen to this faithfully, if there is a topic within hypnosis or the adjacent sciences that you'd like to discuss, we would love to have your opinion on what would be a good topic. Because obviously, seven seasons in, we're like, ooh, haven't we said that before?
[00:04:10] Martin Furber: Yeah, well, this is it, you know, I mean, maybe we can revisit something in more detail as well anyway. Um, but you know, we can talk about the altered brainwave states and altered states of consciousness, can't we, in more detail? We've only ever skimped over them, we can go into them in more detail.
[00:04:26] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, and the more, diagnostic studies that are done, the more those things can be explained.
Because of course They didn't have EEGs back in the day.
[00:04:36] Martin Furber: Now that I mean, so much more can actually be proven now, can't it?
[00:04:39] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, exactly.
[00:04:40] Martin Furber: Yeah. Okay. And then again, we have touched on this one before, but there are so many common misconceptions about hypnosis, aren't there?
[00:04:49] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:04:50] Martin Furber: So I think we should dedicate a whole episode to that as well.
[00:04:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, in the next series. Yeah. And in fact, again, asking for our audience input, if you'd like to tell either or either or both of us, uh, what, what misconceptions you had before you learned about hypnosis and if you're brave enough and you still have, um, that would be fine. It would be, it would be good to be able to, to talk about actual real time.
Issues.
[00:05:19] Martin Furber: Yeah. I mean the two biggest misconceptions I come across though is one, is it real?
[00:05:25] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:05:26] Martin Furber: Yeah. Okay. And two, is it mind control?
[00:05:28] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. The mind control is probably the, most universal. You're going to make me do things. You can't make people do things. you can help them do the things they've decided to do
you cannot control them.
[00:05:40] Martin Furber: Yeah. I mean, I think it would be a good idea to make one of the episodes, um, sort of talking about say, Ericksonian hypnosis against NLP techniques and then discuss the Milton model and the meta model, because a lot of people might not know what that is or they may do. Maybe they want to come on the show and talk to us about them.
[00:05:58] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. Yeah. That would be good with some of the other people that we've had on as guests.
[00:06:02] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:06:02] Denise Billen-Mejia: So, what aspect of hypnosis first drew you to hypnosis? What was what what made you look at it beyond the, oh yeah, kind of interesting.
[00:06:11] Martin Furber: Uh well, when I'd experienced EMDR, as you remember, yeah, I'd had EMDR which I'm adamant is a form of hypnosis.
[00:06:20] Denise Billen-Mejia: And for those people who do not know what those initials stand for because they may not have listened to all of the other shows before.
[00:06:26] Martin Furber: eye movement, desensitization,
reprocessing. So when we think of hypnosis in its very basic form, we tend to think of swinging watches, don't we?
[00:06:37] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a cliche.
Yeah.
[00:06:40] Martin Furber: Yeah. That's the cliche. Yeah. Um, and eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing does use that bilateral stimulation of moving the eyes from left to right. And Francine, Shapiro. who is credited with creating EMDR people are quoting or misquoting her over the years. And the, you know, different people are coming out with different theories.
Nobody knows exactly how it works. Even she didn't mm-hmm . Um, you know, that, that, that's on the record as it were. And people these days, 'cause she's now passed, people these days are saying, oh, it absolutely replicates REM sleep. That's why it's the eye movement, et cetera. Mm-hmm. But, you know. It's a good theory, but it's not proven.
[00:07:22] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:07:25] Martin Furber: Some
[00:07:25] Denise Billen-Mejia: somebody with an MRI machine is somewhere near here thinking about what how they can prove one way or another.
[00:07:33] Martin Furber: Whether it's because that gives you absolute focus. Concentration or not, perhaps. Hmm.
[00:07:41] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well, it does, it does allow you, because you're thinking about moving your eyes, you can't be, you can't do two things at once.
[00:07:46] Martin Furber: No.
[00:07:47] Denise Billen-Mejia: Many, many people have tried. It doesn't work. And so you're, you're catching your brain basically by making it follow this thing. You're doing this. Well, yeah,
[00:07:57] Martin Furber: perhaps that's just bypassing the critical factor because it's occupying the left prefrontal cortex, isn't it? It's occupying the intellectual side of the brain if we're having to think about what to do with light.
So yes, anything else that goes in the ears will go in readily.
[00:08:10] Denise Billen-Mejia: It's a very useful technique. So what was your experience of it briefly? People can
scroll back through the previous episodes where you've talked
[00:08:18] Martin Furber: Wonderful!,
[00:08:20] Denise Billen-Mejia: How , soon
after you started. doing that. Did you find relief?
[00:08:26] Martin Furber: Two sessions.
[00:08:27] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:08:28] Martin Furber: Two sessions.
[00:08:29] Denise Billen-Mejia: Do you remember how you felt after the first session?
[00:08:32] Martin Furber: Um, slightly woozy and a little disorientated as I drove home and it started to rain and I put the window wipers on in the car.
[00:08:42] Denise Billen-Mejia: And you went right back into it. Yeah. You have to be careful about that.
[00:08:45] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Denise Billen-Mejia: One
of the reasons that hypnotists, if you see people in the office and then they're going to have to go deal with getting themselves home, you have to make sure they're really awake before they leave because it is very easy to slip back in.
[00:08:57] Martin Furber: Oh yeah.
[00:08:58] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, another
lovely thing about working online is that people are usually in their own homes and they can just, you know, drift off.
[00:09:06] Martin Furber: Yeah, they can just drift off.
[00:09:07] Denise Billen-Mejia: Take a nap.
[00:09:08] Martin Furber: Yeah, no, it's true
though, because even when somebody's just, uh, undergone usual hypnotic trance, as they come round, you're at that point as if you've had a nap in the afternoon where you're waking up and it's like, Oh no, I just want to go back to sleep.
[00:09:21] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, exactly. .
Oh. Or that is it Sunday? Can I stay here? ? Yeah.
[00:09:30] Martin Furber: Um, so yeah, you were asking me, did I find it beneficial? Absolutely, I did. But mine, when I look at what I underwent, um, at the time it was EMDR. Um. for trauma, immediately followed by, in inverted commas, relaxation, which was basically hypnotic trance.
So, of course
[00:09:51] Denise Billen-Mejia: You didn't,
you didn't explain what the trauma was for those who don't want to scroll back and listen to your earlier stuff. The trauma was?
[00:09:58] Martin Furber: Yeah, yeah, I was robbed.
[00:10:01] Denise Billen-Mejia: And guns were involved. Not terribly English really.
[00:10:04] Martin Furber: Yeah, I know. Um, but yeah, I was stuck in that trauma loop of just not being able to break my thought processes away from it.
It was the first thing on my mind every day and the last thing on my mind.
[00:10:18] Denise Billen-Mejia: And you gave up your job because of
it.
[00:10:21] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:10:21] Denise Billen-Mejia: As a jeweler, obviously being robbed has to be somewhere near the top of the things that are, could be bad about your business. Yeah.
[00:10:29] Martin Furber: Same as working in a bank, I suppose.
Or Yeah,
[00:10:31] Denise Billen-Mejia: probably.
Or post office.
[00:10:33] Martin Furber: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I found it incredibly effective, which gave me that fascination. It was like, wow, what did I just undergo? How was that? Okay. So how did that make such a phenomenal change in such a short space of time? Yeah.
[00:10:49] Denise Billen-Mejia: So how did you find the answers to those questions?
[00:10:52] Martin Furber: Well, I was told what I was having done when they did the EMDR.
What they hadn't explained to me was, and we'll do some relaxation afterwards. They just said that when it was done.
Was this person an EMDR practitioner? Was this a psychologist who just used that technique of the many they know?
This was a psychotherapist who just used that technique.
[00:11:10] Denise Billen-Mejia: That was the only one she used, he or she used?
[00:11:12] Martin Furber: Yeah, I, I was referred there by a psychiatrist. This, this was private health care here in the UK, so this wasn't NHS, and this was private health care. My psychiatrist said, I'm going to send you to see our therapist for some sessions. And the therapist said, we are going to, uh, I had a chat with him on the first occasion and they said, well, next week when you come back, we're going to do some treatment.
And I said, okay, I'm game as it were. Um, And they explained to me something about, well, we're going to get your eyes moving. It's a very, um, specialized technique. I'll explain it to you next time. So I went there the next time and they told me the very familiar, cause I've heard it so many times now, story of Francine Shapiro walking through the woods and the lights coming through the trees and her eyes moving, and she wondered why she felt better every time she'd done that walk.
Um, you're familiar with the story as well, I can tell.
[00:12:04] Denise Billen-Mejia: It's not just the exercise that's good for you.
[00:12:07] Martin Furber: Well, then again, you see, we talk about these, the phontycides nowadays that we kick up when we're kicking leaves up, all the essential oils, maybe it was those as well helping.
[00:12:18] Denise Billen-Mejia: A little of everything, lots and lots of things are there to help us.
So you did that, how long after that did you actually, Get to the point where you studied hypnosis.
[00:12:27] Martin Furber: Not that long afterwards, about six months after because I, I was sort of still recovering from it and trying to think, well, what do I want to do now? Because I didn't want to go back to the shop. Um, it was like, well, you know,
[00:12:39] Denise Billen-Mejia: But that wasn't a fear response.
It was a, it was, it was just, I'm reaching a point where I don't want to do this manual labor all the time.
[00:12:48] Martin Furber: It was that it was also, um, okay, I'm, I'm not terrified anymore, but I just don't want it to happen again.
[00:12:54] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Martin Furber: Um, and also of course the arthritis in the fingers, which, and, and eyesight failing. And it was like, you know, maybe all these things coming together are just telling me it's a good time to do something else.
Um, whilst the idea of lying on a beach for the rest of my days and doing nothing was quite appealing. It wasn't really me. Um, yeah.
[00:13:18] Denise Billen-Mejia: And, and it's, Yeah, you still got to feed the butcher and all the other people that you need in your life. So did you search for somebody who could teach you hypnosis?
[00:13:28] Martin Furber: Not initially.
[00:13:29] Denise Billen-Mejia: Did you happen across
somebody?
[00:13:30] Martin Furber: Not initially. I started to just search online for information on hypnosis and there's loads out there. So I was sorting through the wheat and the chaff as it were. I did a couple of, quite long online courses. We're not talking sit and watch a few videos.
We're talking, um, online courses, which had, um, a lot, a lot of detail writing you had to do back, you know, assignments and that kind of thing. Um, part of which was you had to start practicing on people, which was great fun. Um, and then I thought, right, okay. And I kept picking it up and putting it down because I was enjoying doing nothing as well for a while.
[00:14:09] Denise Billen-Mejia: Um, yeah, well, it's, A little nothing is nice. A lot of nothing is
hard in the pocketbook
usually.
[00:14:14] Martin Furber: Picking it up and putting it down and then, I decided to think, right, I need to do this formally now. I need to do this properly. Um, again, there are lots of different types of hypnosis Schools out there and techniques out there, and I found one that I felt was a good fit for me because it would give me at the end of it, the National Council for Hypnotherapy qualification.
And that would allow me to join the CNHC register, the Complementary Natural Healthcare Council register. And in the UK, if you went to your GP over here and said, Hey, GP, can you recommend me a hypnotherapist? He or she has to. He or she has to consult that list. They can only recommend somebody on that list.
So that register, so I'm on that register.
[00:14:59] Denise Billen-Mejia: So you knew it was a legitimate training person. Obviously anybody can throw a shingle at most countries, most states in the U. S. It's unregulated and people do need to
be careful. And worry
about those people that do the weekend courses and call themselves a hypnotist.
[00:15:14] Martin Furber: Yeah, I mean it's unregulated over here. Anybody can call themselves a hypnotherapist. However, if you want to do it seriously and properly, then you want to get the right qualifications. You want to get onto the right register, , the registers where a GP will recommend you, that's the kind of thing you want to do.
Um, so I found a school that was a good fit for me and that's how I learned now. Back in the day. Mm-hmm
[00:15:37] Denise Billen-Mejia: . . Does it being on the, does it being on the register mean that the NHS will pay for it?
[00:15:42] Martin Furber: No, not as yet. Yes. 'cause the NHS still won't pay. But as I say, if you go to your GP and say, can you recommend a hypnotherapist?
Um, they have to choose somebody off that register.
[00:15:53] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right. Yeah. They, they know is legit.
[00:15:55] Martin Furber: Yeah. So,
[00:15:56] Denise Billen-Mejia: but it, I just, I know you've
[00:15:57] Martin Furber: reached a certain standard, right? And, and you adhere to a code of practice. Um,
[00:16:01] Denise Billen-Mejia: it's a shame. It's a shame because I know that it, it's also the first. thing that should be suggested to people with certain conditions is hypnosis.
And yet, even though it's the best thing for most people, it's interesting. They don't want to cough up money for it. I can see them, you know, sorry, why don't you pay 30 for some pounds or whatever for, for the technique, keeping it very low. Uh, most people would want to be in private practice anyway, national health.
[00:16:28] Martin Furber: And yet, of course, the NHS pay quite happily for EMDR.
[00:16:32] Denise Billen-Mejia: That's just wrong.
[00:16:34] Martin Furber: Yeah, yeah, they pay for EMDR. They recommend EMDR as a treatment, it's a recognized treatment, um, even though there's no more scientific proof for it than there is for hypnosis.
[00:16:46] Denise Billen-Mejia: Now, what qualifications does an EMDR person need in order for them to get
paid by the NHS.
[00:16:52] Martin Furber: Right. They have to be BACP registered. Which stands
[00:16:57] Denise Billen-Mejia: for?
[00:16:58] Martin Furber: British Association of Counsellors & Psychotherapists.
[00:17:01] Denise Billen-Mejia: Okay. So they have to be psychologists? Yeah,
[00:17:03] Martin Furber: they have to be psychologists or similar. Um, because basically the EMDR association keep it as a very closed shop. It is very much a closed shop.
Um, but EMDR is another unregulated treatment over here. It's actually unregulated.
[00:17:21] Denise Billen-Mejia: Well, hypnosis is most of the states,
and
the regulation that's in place in the two states where it is regulated is really, you know, sending, sending your coupon.
[00:17:30] Martin Furber: But it sort of begs the question then, if we were to say EMDR is a hypnosis technique in essence, a form of hypnosis.
[00:17:40] Denise Billen-Mejia: Then you'd think that hypnosis would be accepted treatment, at least for some conditions, and it's well documented.
[00:17:45] Martin Furber: Or other forms of. hypnosis, such as specific forms of hypnosis, like solution focused hypnosis, for example, rather than perhaps a regressive hypnosis.
[00:17:58] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes. Most of us try not to use that.
[00:18:00] Martin Furber: I don't use it, but we did have that wonderful conversation and I, we had it with an open mind when we welcomed, um, your ex tutor on the show.
And I still remember she said one thing and it just made me think when she said, have you never had deja vu?
[00:18:18] Denise Billen-Mejia: Actually, we, if there's a, because she does practice that we should perhaps in our list of things. I'm sure she'd be happy to come back on the show and talk.
[00:18:26] Martin Furber: Oh, I'd be delighted to welcome her back on. Yeah.
[00:18:28] Denise Billen-Mejia: I haven't talked to her for a while. I really should. Yeah. That's the trouble living in Delaware with a tutor in California.
You don't bump into her very often.
[00:18:36] Martin Furber: But as I say, you know, we, we welcome all our guests with an open mind, don't we? We are respectful of all of them, but you know, I have my views on regression therapy. Um, but I, I welcomed her with an open mind and as soon as she said have you never had deja vu, I thought, right, okay, I'm listening.
I'm listening. Yeah. So, okay. I mean, we could do another episode talking about the actual power of suggestion and what do we mean by suggestion?
[00:19:06] Denise Billen-Mejia: When I try to break that down in my head, I always think of parents like maneuvering their children to do. to suggest something, you know.
[00:19:14] Martin Furber: So like, like a double blind, do you want to clean your bedroom before or after you tea?
[00:19:19] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, that's one of those things. Yes.
[00:19:21] Martin Furber: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a suggestion, isn't it?
But it's a double blind question. Interestingly, just as a side note, dear listeners and viewers, I've got to answer some questions. And one of them is about Socratic questioning. And I was going to put, is there a better way to ask this question as the answer? They might think I'm being sarcastic.
[00:19:43] Denise Billen-Mejia: Who can argue with Socrates?
[00:19:44] Martin Furber: Yeah. The other thing is that I thought we could talk about is when we talk about it every week, but the unconscious mind, the subconscious mind, because we know it's a metaphor. We can't point. to it, can we?
[00:19:59] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, there's no particular spot in the brain where it lives.
[00:20:03] Martin Furber: Yeah, we can, we can point to all the other bits with the big names and people like you even know them all.
[00:20:10] Denise Billen-Mejia: Or at least I can remember that I ought to know them. Yeah,
[00:20:13] Martin Furber: I can remember most of them too. But, uh, I think, you know, because people make so many,
[00:20:19] Denise Billen-Mejia: Oh, I really, it's, it's a silly, but I would love to talk about the homunculus when we, when we do whatever we're doing, where things live in the brain, I would love to bring up the homunculus.
[00:20:30] Martin Furber: Oh, and enlighten me, tell me a little bit about the homunculus.
[00:20:32] Denise Billen-Mejia: The homunculus is that sort of weird looking body that you see in some anatomy books when they're talking about the brain. It's how your brain thinks. Your, your right hand, if you're right handed is huge compared to other parts of your anatomy.
Yeah. Yeah. Homunculus.
[00:20:46] Martin Furber: So it's come back to me now. It's come back to me now. Yeah, I remember it. I remember it. Okay. What about, um, here's an interesting one. Hypnosis and spirituality. Because when we think about things like
[00:20:59] Denise Billen-Mejia: Big in the 1800s.
[00:21:00] Martin Furber: Yeah, but when we think of things like altered states of consciousness, inner peace, certain similarities there, isn't there?
[00:21:09] Denise Billen-Mejia: And those people who have post death experiences, and they've been brought back. And, you know, nobody knows quite what that is. I mean, most of us have our theories, but there's Difficult to prove things.
[00:21:23] Martin Furber: Yeah, I mean, well, there you go. You as a doctor, you must have had experience with somebody who'd flatlined and then been kapowed and brought back.
[00:21:30] Denise Billen-Mejia: That isn't nearly as upsetting to me as when you've explained to the family how their loved one is now essentially not there anymore. And we're going to put them in so that we have to wait a certain period of time before we can turn off the machines because of ventilators
and then there's a miracle, and they come back and they're just as fine as they were before they went.
[00:21:49] Martin Furber: Okay. Has that happened to you as a doctor?
[00:21:51] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, it has happened to me as a doctor. It's embarrassing really, but I'm very happy for her and her husband.
[00:21:58] Martin Furber: You got it wrong, but boy are we glad you did.
[00:22:01] Denise Billen-Mejia: Exactly.
[00:22:03] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:22:04] Denise Billen-Mejia: There's so much we don't know.
[00:22:06] Martin Furber: Of course there is.
[00:22:07] Denise Billen-Mejia: And of course this is, this is one of the things that there are still some people who feel that hypnosis is. insulting to God in some ways.
[00:22:16] Martin Furber: Okay.
[00:22:18] Denise Billen-Mejia: Or, or, you know, it's not, it's not exactly a sin, but it's whatever that is that you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be messing with it.
[00:22:23] Martin Furber: It's the dark arts.
[00:22:25] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes. The dark arts.
[00:22:26] Martin Furber: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Denise Billen-Mejia: I definitely feel that God has given us an incredible number of things that we can do to help us in this world. And we really should pay more attention and use those things he's given us.
[00:22:39] Martin Furber: Yeah. I mean, when we think about things like, for example, That power of human connection.
Okay, now I'll take the traditional religious aspect out of it. Think of a crowd at a football match or a pop concert. Okay, that same uplifting thing whenever
[00:22:54] Denise Billen-Mejia: Group hypnosis.
[00:22:55] Martin Furber: Yeah, it is, isn't it?
When, when everybody's eyes are fixed on one thing and everybody's just so uplifted and feels fantastic.
[00:23:02] Denise Billen-Mejia: Mm hmm.
[00:23:04] Martin Furber: Um, because you can literally walk away from, say, a stadium where you've watched a huge game or your team win or something. Also With absolute euphoria, can't you?
[00:23:12] Denise Billen-Mejia: One of the reasons that, although neither of us practice group hypnosis very often Mm. that tends to be Most people's experience of that is with stage hypnosis which neither of you or I would do.
Um but it is um the weight loss program that I'm running at the moment. Oh yeah. The the point of that is you know obviously hypnosis and weight loss and hypnosis of just about anything go together but um it's it's almost an extra good thing for um an extra fill up for for the clients because they don't just hear me talking to them about positive things that are happening.
But they hear from other people going through the same experience that they are.
[00:23:54] Martin Furber: Yeah. So the whole thing is uplifting, isn't it?
[00:23:56] Denise Billen-Mejia: Right, right. And it's one of the areas where most the, things that trigger you eating are pretty well known. It's the, you can cover everything. It's because everybody experiences hypnosis, and goes under for different reasons.
[00:24:12] Martin Furber: Mm. Yeah.
[00:24:12] Denise Billen-Mejia: You'd have to, you know, go through 20 different things to try and get everybody on the same page in a group session, which can be somewhat annoying for the person that's, that's thing is number 20 on the list.
[00:24:23] Martin Furber: Okay,
[00:24:23] Denise Billen-Mejia: so I'm enjoying that.
[00:24:24] Martin Furber: Okay. Right. Okay. And then I thought for another episode in the next series.
Okay, we could actually talk about the future of hypnosis like you know where do either of us see it going. And where do our viewers and listeners see it going.
[00:24:37] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, I think it's going to get rid of the idea of mysticism soon.
[00:24:41] Martin Furber: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:42] Denise Billen-Mejia: I think that's coming out of the hard science that people are, you know, you can, you can see the areas, you can see them lighting up when you're saying things to people.
[00:24:51] Martin Furber: Well, yeah, I mean, okay, you are a medical doctor, so everything you do is science based.
[00:24:57] Denise Billen-Mejia: Pretty much.
[00:24:58] Martin Furber: As a doctor, as a medical doctor.
[00:25:00] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah, there is certainly I wouldn't treat anybody with hocus pocus. There's a lot of the unknown in the world too, like the person I was saying who came back from what should have been a kill death, a kill blow.
But, um, yeah, thankfully she survived it.
[00:25:18] Martin Furber: Yeah. And then of course we've got the placebo effect.
[00:25:21] Denise Billen-Mejia: That's actually worth talking about.
[00:25:22] Martin Furber: That's, yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:24] Denise Billen-Mejia: The placebo effect is very interesting.
I think
that it would be nice to talk about, and I'm thinking on people's names. , I can almost read it, but I can't say it.
The guy also from the north of England, Britain, um, who was in India, not Braid, the other guy, starts with an E. Esdale!. Yes, I think he's, he's, um, quite surprising techniques. I think they were the beginning of this truly scientific approach, the modern science of looking at hypnosis. And it gained huge popularity.
[00:26:03] Martin Furber: Yeah, well it was Esdale who started to use hypnosis as a form of anesthetic before operations.
[00:26:09] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yes, exactly. Having had the good fortune of being in a country where he wasn't being too closely watched, I think. In India. Yeah, it was in India. Did about 300 operations, probably not on people that were entirely, um, cognizant of what was going on.
But again, you can't do it without somebody's consent. You have to.
[00:26:31] Martin Furber: Of course.
[00:26:32] Denise Billen-Mejia: You have to establish a true rapport with the person so that they trust you. Yeah. You're not, you know, I mean, it really is the, the idea that you can hypnotize somebody to do something against their will is just.
[00:26:45] Martin Furber: No, I mean, again, that comes from certain aspects of stage hypnosis where basically all they've done is induce some kind of confusion technique.
We've just confused somebody temporarily when you, you know, you see sort of. Street hypnotists was the latest thing a few years back, wasn't it? As opposed to stage hypnotists. So street hypnotists, hypnotists who don't have a stage.
[00:27:08] Denise Billen-Mejia: The world. Yeah.
[00:27:10] Martin Furber: So, um, they basically do when, when they make somebody forget their name or something, it's just a confusion technique, isn't it?
[00:27:17] Denise Billen-Mejia: Yeah. And it comes back as soon as the, yeah, it's not, it's not a problem.
[00:27:22] Martin Furber: Yeah, I mean, I can remember all kinds of things when we were kids we used to do on each other.
[00:27:26] Denise Billen-Mejia: So we should invite people.
Invite people to come back for next season. We're almost, we're now in the second half of the seventh season.
[00:27:34] Martin Furber: Yeah,
we are.
[00:27:35] Denise Billen-Mejia: But the eighth season, you might learn some new tricks.
[00:27:37] Martin Furber: Uh, oh dear me. Right, okay. Well, so we've got lots to look forward to next season, Denise. And of course, next week we have Brenda Rhodes back on.
[00:27:46] Denise Billen-Mejia: Oh, that's right. Yes, good.
[00:27:48] Martin Furber: We do. So, um, do join us again next week when we will have Brenda Rhodes chatting away with us. Um, great episode coming up. Denise, see you next week.
Okay.
[00:27:58] Denise Billen-Mejia: Bye.
